13:01:12 #startmeeting 13:01:12 Meeting started Sat Sep 26 13:01:12 2009 UTC. The chair is Ganneff. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 13:01:12 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 13:01:19 #chair Tolimar 13:01:19 Current chairs: Ganneff Tolimar 13:01:32 Hello and welcome everybody. As people suggested to have this meeting in english, which would make sense as other global team members can alter easily find out why we decided for our winner, I start in english. If someone is uncomfortable with this, speak up now, if not we continue this way. 13:01:58 if en_ABA is ok ... 13:02:03 #addchair Tolimar 13:02:11 damn you MeetBot :) 13:02:17 oh sure, its also en_Ganneff from me. 13:02:28 So, this DC11.de decision meeting is between Berlin and Munich, after Rhein/Rhur stepped back. For the way it is intended to run please look in my mail from earlier this week, http://lists.debconf.net/lurker-net/message/20090921.214146.35b0cd97.en.html , or simply see how it goes :) 13:03:08 Tolimar: i assume you are alive? :) 13:03:15 To start the introduction, short, Tolimar AKA Alexander Reichle-Schmel and me AKA Jörg Jaspert are the two chairs today. SvenG is doing the relay function between the -chat channel and here, so now lets go over to the two teams. 13:03:15 * Tolimar yawns. 13:03:16 #topic Introduction, Team Berlin 13:03:51 My name is Torsten Werner. I am a contributor to Debian for 10 years now (- 1 year NM = 9 years DD) and I have attended Debconf since dc5 (Helsinki). My backup is devil. 13:04:52 devil_BER: so who are you? 13:05:01 my name is Ferdinand Thommes, working with debian for 7 years 13:05:14 thanks you two 13:05:16 #topic Introduction, Team Munich 13:05:18 i work for sidux as community manager 13:05:27 berlin, finished now? 13:05:34 yup 13:05:36 ok 13:06:44 so, my name is Andi Barth, I'm a Debian contributor for a few years now. First QA and stuff, then Release Team, now member of tech ctte and still in Release Team and QA. My first Debconf was in Helsinki. 13:07:10 (and my bakcup is typing right now) 13:07:12 I am Michael Banck, Debian Developer for 9 years now 13:07:29 great. thanks. done? 13:07:30 I used to be an Application Manager, and am the head of the Debichem team 13:07:36 done 13:07:41 #topic each venue describes each topic from the priority list for their venue, MUC 13:08:02 http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/PriorityList - that list 13:08:20 yes, give me time 13:08:23 http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf11/Germany/Munich/PriorityList 13:08:37 Debconf11/Germany/Berlin/DecisionMeeting 13:08:49 ok. fine thats easier 13:08:59 so, 4 mins for everyone to read through that, if you are ok with that 13:09:00 Ganneff: should I go through each point now? 13:09:03 ok. 13:09:13 unless you want to paste it all, but im fine with reading it there 13:09:57 something else which is not written down (yet) was that when we started we assumed that hostels would be nearly impossible. We found out it *way* better than expected, if we go off-season, as Munich is a major tourist attraction and has many (even cheap) places. 13:10:13 #topic Prioritylists at http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf11/Germany/Munich/PriorityList and http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/Debconf11/Germany/Berlin/DecisionMeeting 13:11:25 btw, please paste full urls, makes it easier, as they are also linked then in the minutes 13:11:34 sry :) 13:12:38 ok. so. everybody ok and (at least skimmed) read thro0ugh the lists? 13:12:57 yes 13:13:08 muc? tolimar? 13:13:09 Yes. 13:13:18 yes 13:13:23 #topic each team describes what are the good points about the other team. BER about MUC 13:13:31 (please copy/paste that, its not that long each) 13:13:54 MUC has very good support from their municipality 13:13:59 MUC has a larger airport 13:14:14 done, i think? 13:14:17 yes 13:14:19 .oO(anything else, or should we come up with more?) 13:14:24 #topic each team describes what are the good points about the other team. MUC about BER 13:15:06 it seems berlin people have quite much time to burn, if looking at the pdf. 13:15:42 also, staying in berlin is cheaper (though not as cheap as Sarajevo, and even though travel is a bit more complicated and more expansive) 13:16:02 Also, the proposed venue is cheaper than any of the three munich venues (even if there is no backup venue) 13:16:05 done. 13:16:20 thanks 13:16:21 #topic each team describe the weak points in their own bid. MUC 13:16:56 well, obviously Munich isn't the cheapest city on the world. We had that I think :) 13:17:05 yes we did :) 13:17:06 more? 13:17:14 please wait till I saxy "done" 13:17:17 k 13:17:34 we need to admit our bid isn't fully matured yet, but well - we could e.g. already have pre-contracts but we don't. 13:17:52 also we didn't spend any time on polishing our bid, you can see that e.g. by quality of pictures. 13:18:24 and the distance between venue and hostel is quite large, 5 minutes by 24x7-public trasnport is the outer limit I consider acceptable for a debconf 13:18:27 done. 13:18:36 #topic each team describe the weak points in their own bid. BER 13:18:44 Berlin is such an interesting place that people might get distracted from DebConf. 13:19:09 others? 13:19:36 (it has to be said that a lot of interesting places in Berlin are quite far away) 13:19:37 Berlin is less central in europe 13:19:54 we have no mountains :) 13:20:38 twerner_BER: done? 13:20:38 (yet) 13:20:41 (we have many interesting places close to the city or in the city) 13:20:46 done 13:20:49 thanks 13:20:49 We had a 5mins break in the dc10 meet here. Seeing how fast this goes up to now (less venues, less talk), should we just continue? 13:21:10 we can continue 13:21:11 yes 13:21:18 okay with me 13:21:49 ok, so we are getting the question session now. the first is special about the named bid, later we will have a "free shoot for all in all directions too". 13:21:56 #topic 5 minutes question per bid, BER - ask SvenG in the -chat channel to ask here 13:21:57 (I'd like a break at ~16 or so if we're not finished then) 13:22:06 aba_MUC: noted 13:22:21 ok. feel free to shot at BER with questions about therir bid 13:22:28 i would like to correct aba_MUC about what he said on backup venue 13:23:05 we do have a backup venue in our bidpaper, which we visited and got all the facts in the paper 13:23:14 look for Urania 13:23:37 devil_BER: sorry. I meant "affordable backup venue". Should have said that clearer. 13:23:44 ok :) 13:24:18 Ganneff: should I ask my questions now here or in -chat or not at all? 13:24:26 in here to BER 13:24:29 we do have other backups to the backup :) 13:24:36 its currently "shot at BER with questions" session. 13:25:39 devil_BER: can you please answere here? :) 13:25:47 so. we know that MUC has their government behind it, they even had a statement from one of them in caceres. how good is that situation in BER? 13:26:12 aba_MUC: the question was in -chat 13:26:17 devil_BER: according to your answer elsewhere, it seems that you plan to go for 30 Euro/night for sleeping? 13:26:26 oh, and yes please, forward questions in here (hello SvenG :) ) so we have them in the meeting logs 13:26:34 aba_MUC: 25-30€ 13:26:51 we have contacts to the senate (Technik, Sport, Frauen) 13:27:02 devil_BER: ok. so you plan to have sponsored lodging for 25-30 euro / person? 13:27:17 those would all be in 5-8 min. walking distance and probably a whole hotel for us 13:27:23 twerner_BER: how likely are they to help out? technik sounds like the right direction, but.. 13:28:00 aba_MUC: no set plans on that yet. we need the definite ok from HU first 13:28:10 but there is no such thing as Limux in Berlin 13:28:27 devil_BER: but your rought budget tends to that? 13:28:28 i do find the "free transport everywhere for all dc attendees" interesting. only the price tag is huge. is there chance of getting tht lower? 13:28:49 The contact are useful for getting sponsorship for rooms, tickets, ... 13:28:56 ok 13:29:04 aba_MUC: yes 13:29:13 so. its actually more than 5 minutes, considering we have a general Q&A later, lets switch to MUC 13:29:18 #topic 5 minutes question per bid, MUC - ask SvenG in the -chat channel to ask here 13:29:20 yes there is a chance to get it lower through sponsorship 13:29:37 and we have contact to the senator of economics 13:29:42 k 13:29:58 so, I'll just follow up on questions that match to Munich as well 13:30:04 fine. 13:30:20 next elections are 2014, so no worries about Limux (and will survive that probably as well) 13:30:27 aba_MUC: what are your proposed hotel costs? 13:30:41 devil_BER: 20-25 Euro, without in-depth discussions 13:30:56 that's for hostels, though 13:31:01 aba_MUC: is that in 1 hotel or scattered? 13:31:24 that would be in 1-2 hostels in the city centres, in 4-8 bed dorms or something, similar in Edinburgh 13:31:25 also, we have contacts to the relevant public transport people to get that quite reduced or free. 13:31:27 s/in/to/ 13:31:48 via the city, and also my second hobby is knowing the relevant people in all the public transport companies. 13:32:00 aba_MUC: how about the price tag on venues? 13:32:14 but currently is the wrong moment to get a good answer. 13:32:33 devil_BER: all three are ~10-15k, which is next to nothing (relative to food, lodging) 13:32:54 and people indicated at at least one that thanks to support from Limux prices could drop, perhaps even to 0. 13:33:09 (though it might be entirely possible that the university venues can be negotiated to get cheaper) 13:33:20 also, please note that we have a different location for DebianDay, which is in the heart of munich, and which we get for free. 13:33:55 room size in the math building is enough - except perhaps for debian day where we want to go somewhere else. 13:34:00 and can we lease have the discussion here? 13:34:19 .oO(am I in the wrong channel?) 13:34:42 aba_MUC: No, you aren't ;) 13:34:47 aba_MUC: its QA session for muc, i see nothing thats wrong for it? 13:35:13 so, any more questions? 13:35:20 there were a couple in -chat 13:35:32 15:33 < bluewater> Do the Munich Dorms mean the rat pack Back Packer hotels? 13:35:35 I picked up some, but I might have missed them. 13:35:36 now, we are getting to timelimit for this. i know i diverted a little from the plan i mailed, so: do we want more questios, then i would open for all for like 10 minutes, in all directions 13:35:58 I don't know what rat pack Back Packer hostels are, but they are hostels, yes 13:36:07 like we had in Edinburgh. 13:36:19 #topic QA free for all shoot, 10 minutes 13:36:26 so for that. 13:37:09 now, one question to both: no matter which kind of accom you chose (hotel/hostel/bridge), you keep in mind that we will have disabled people and they might need different accom? bonus points if its in the same, but keeping in mind and getting it done is great enough 13:37:12 I'd be interessted in an fair "which points do we currently lack" statement 13:37:29 Ganneff: there are lots of hotels near Hauptbahnhof 13:37:34 Ganneff: I'm not sure about all rooms, but there are enough "good rooms" for them 13:37:51 i like to now if there is a room where all debconf attendees can be seated, if think its important to have for example welcome and closingceromy or something like that with everyone together 13:37:56 if we get one of the hostels there, even if they are not barrierefrei, it should be possible to get a nearby hotel room 13:37:57 (unless the disabled percentage goes up to >= 80% till 2011, then I might redconsider my statement) 13:38:01 all rooms dont need it, but if we have sufficient ones, great. (youo can expect detailed questions from them nearer to debconf, so we get it) 13:38:19 aba_MUC: i sure hope it does not. 13:38:20 kuroi: that wasn't so much the case in previous debconfs 13:38:35 For both: As I understood both cities don't have an official "Okay" from their prefered venues, correct? How likely see it, to get their prefered venues? What problems could come up? 13:38:49 Ganneff: for the dorm as well as for the proposed hotels we can guarantee some rooms for disabled people 13:38:56 good 13:39:06 kuroi: if I look back, we have the largest on debian day where we go to another place which is more representative. 13:39:13 dorm has 2, HU guesthous has more, hotel has 'some' 13:39:19 kuroi: funnily many people decide not to go to the welcome ceremony and use the great video team performance instead, watching stream 13:40:00 (for debian day it's http://www.muenchen.de/Rathaus/dir/raum/101270/altrath.html ) 13:40:34 the should be no problem getting the HU venue during semester holiday time 13:41:17 Tolimar: we have checked three venues right now. It looks ok for any of them, and we will not drop any of them till we have one signed. 13:41:32 Okay. 13:41:36 in worst case, there are many more possible venues, but three affordable ones are enough for today. 13:41:45 yes 13:42:05 yes, we have more universities in Berlin to ask for additional venue 13:42:31 the good thing about both universities in Munich is that the proposed rooms are very near to each other 13:42:32 aba_MUC: so you dont have numbers of room sizes and seats? 13:43:09 kuroi: I have no numbers with me, sorry. I used to study there though, and I can confirm it's "large enough" 13:43:12 i assume all venues would allow us a way of having 24/7 access during debconf, in at least one room? 13:43:33 (at least comparing to all previous debconfs) 13:43:45 our rooms at HU are mostly in the main building, including the 'Mensa' (student restaurant) 13:44:05 oh, also: do you know how good your most preferred venue is setup re videoteam needs already? and/or cabling for lan? and if we can use that (without expensive costs) 13:44:27 yes we have access to all rooms 13:44:44 Ganneff: for HU, everything is there, partly wired, wiring needed places no problem 13:45:21 Ganneff: I assume full access as well - needs a bit of bureaucratic stuff, but as the city supports ... (quite important for the university) 13:45:28 for Urania, video stuff is also there, partialy wired, the admin is glad to assist to get needed areas wired 13:45:31 Ganneff: prefered venue has full cabeling we can reuse. We can add cables if we want (but we won't need to). 13:45:49 both have wlan for the whole place 13:46:08 we need to add wireless before debconf starts though (we can use wireless they have, but we need more for debconf - for debcamp it's ok) 13:46:35 ok 13:46:36 (at least according to experience debconf is *heavy* in wireless usage) 13:46:40 anyone else a question for any side? 13:46:45 aba_MUC: oh yes, it is 13:46:50 Urania will need some extra access points which is no prob though 13:47:03 (and I think we all prefer to have our own network under our control - easier for all) 13:47:32 #topic Debate 13:47:32 Ok. So the next is the priority list, which actually will be the largest part, agreeing on all of it. 13:47:32 For DC10 we went with a system that assigned 1 point to the better bid, per topic. Im also fine with a rating on a scale of 0 til 10, if you prefer, we just need to agree on one now. :) I think 1/0 is a simpler system, as i fear 0-10 leads to much to discussion. 13:48:15 Ganneff: I assume we'll come up with "near to each other", so I would prefer to vote them with equal for now but keep open for a revisit if everything else is realy same. 13:48:23 (or -2, -1, 0, 1, 2 - whatever) 13:48:28 Ganneff: if 1/0 will work we should use it, if not we need to finegrain it 13:49:39 ok. letsd start with 1/0 for now, we can adapt and add 0.5 or so if needed 13:49:44 Ganneff: ok 13:49:47 #topic 1. "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees 13:50:24 this is actually lots easier to decide between countries (travel cost for example) 13:50:51 the general thing according to stats says munich should be more expensive. yet that can be a big should. 13:50:56 if we sum up, it seems both are really next to each other - which is not what I expected. 13:51:01 yes 13:51:19 Ganneff: I'm astonished that berlin people are planning with larger hotel costs than we do 13:51:20 so for now we either assign a 1 or a 0 to both? ties can happen. 13:51:57 local travel costs, food, ... are more expensive in MUC 13:52:02 how did both teams plan the accom costs? incl. breakfast? excluding? maybe that makes a difference? 13:52:05 twerner_BER: not true. 13:52:22 Ganneff: including. 13:52:29 and we could book the prices as of today. 13:52:58 aba_MUC: we are not planning with higher rates, we have alternatives 13:53:09 devil_BER: which are 15 minutes by public transport. 13:53:16 which is not acceptable IMHO. 13:53:20 aba_MUC: we have dorm from 10€ up and hotel around 25€ 13:53:23 aba_MUC: true 13:53:24 I think Ganneff and Tolimar need to make the decision. 13:53:43 devil_BER: hotel is ~30 according to your pdf. 13:53:48 i would suggest taking both as 1 for now. and mark it revisit if we get a tie in the end 13:53:49 then you said it's 25-30 before. 13:53:54 now you say it's 25. 13:54:02 can you please make a statement what it really is? 13:54:14 aba_MUC: for hotel yes, not for dorm. its all in our bidpaper, detailed 13:54:17 Ganneff: ok with me. 13:54:28 ber: ok with 1 for both, plus mark revisit? 13:54:35 Ganneff: Okay. 13:54:36 10-30 (10 = dormatory) 13:54:49 devil_BER: I'd prefer if you either say the hostel is planned, then we need to discuss if it's acceptable from distance. 13:54:51 okay 13:54:56 or you say it's not, then we drop it. 13:55:01 #topic 2. strong, mature, experienced local team 13:55:38 from what ive seen in the preparation, the ber team is larger and/or invested more time. 13:55:55 yes 13:56:11 Yes, but the muc team has more experience wrt DebConf. 13:56:25 twerner was a lot Debconfs as well 13:56:38 has it? hrmwell, aba and muc both attended. in ber we have twerner who also was there, and at some point did pentabarf work 13:56:43 however, I think Munich still has some more potential - there are a handful of long-standing DDs which have been to several 13:56:44 and debacle who is no here today 13:57:01 well, lots of munich people were at debconfs in past. 13:57:06 right 13:57:35 so if we start couting how many peple from where were at which debcnf, we'll need another hour for this 13:57:41 ohyes 13:57:46 yeah, that doesn't make sense 13:57:49 im currently tending to a slight plus for ber 13:57:56 also, Limux-people are presenting *very* often 13:57:59 Ganneff: eh? 13:58:06 including organising events. 13:58:14 Ganneff: I don't concur. 13:58:21 and also, I'm organising a !debian-conference every year for 10 years now. 13:58:24 Tolimar: ok. fine. i leave this point to sou then 13:58:28 s/sou/you/ 13:59:05 aba_MUC: OOI - which one/which kind of 13:59:37 *I* had the feeling, that muc has a slight plus. (A very slight one.) However, since you don't agree, and since it's just a slight one, I would call it a draw here. 13:59:38 Ganneff: Horber Schienen-Tage, ~200-250 people each year. 5 days on block. 13:59:48 k 13:59:49 BER has people who organised other conferences and events 13:59:51 http://horber.schienen-tage.de/ for those wo want 13:59:52 Alex is supporting Berlin and Limux is not having more talks 14:00:04 Wizards of OS 14:00:05 who is Alex? 14:00:06 ah 14:00:28 certainly Berlin has more people with a diverse FLOSS-related background 14:00:36 Bobcatsss was organized by a team member 14:00:39 I wouldn't be so sure on that even 14:00:40 Linuxtag 14:00:43 .oO(we end up with all as ties :) ) 14:00:51 Alexander Wirt 14:00:54 twerner_BER: so you trhink berlin should have leading point because formorer supports Berlin? 14:01:04 twerner_BER: ok, but what is the point? 14:01:05 Ganneff: that's what I fear too 14:01:05 Ganneff: Shall I get a coin we can throw? 14:01:08 ;) 14:01:43 Tolimar: worst case? well. i hope not. i do *not* want two german bids in the end, we want to avoid that. it will only weaken us. oh well, lets try on. 14:02:23 anyways. lets note both as 1 here and see if we find a point where this wont happen. :) 14:02:28 #topic 3. good working spaces 14:02:46 Ganneff: I definitly won't go with two german bids, but it might come out that we can't do the final decision today. 14:02:52 if we dont with this list, in the end, we can think of nother way out, or if there is none. 14:03:21 (i wont support dc11.de when there are two bids. i know its a dead end then). 14:03:26 anyways. good working spaces. 14:03:49 I don't know about berlins, but I'm totally happy with the proposed ones in munich 14:04:15 according to the pdf berlins proposed primary venue is also ok, the backup ones I don't know (but they're too expansive anyways) 14:04:21 (the domain dc11.de is given to some swedish guy, by the way ;) 14:04:24 We have the more exact numbers not only "good enough". 14:04:59 I disagree that this is an advantage. 14:05:17 aba_MUC: only the first backup is expensive, but perfectly suited, as we said, we might change backups as needed 14:05:32 devil_BER: the second backup was Haus der Kulturen? 14:05:40 that sounded even more expensive 14:05:59 azeem_MUC: HDKDW and other universities, yes 14:06:18 azeem_MUC: no, its run by the ministry of culture 14:06:30 not a commercial venue 14:06:47 they accepted debconf as cultural event 14:07:05 so you drop Urania now as possible location? 14:07:44 aba_MUC: if we cant find sponsors for it yes, otherwise it stays as first backup because its perfectly suited 14:08:21 if we find additional 100k sponsor, we could offer other venues as well - but we decided to follow up on more realistic options here. 14:08:34 Are the any photos from the MUC venues? 14:08:43 twerner_BER: yes, linked from our wiki page. 14:08:47 as linked on http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf11/Germany/Munich 14:09:10 I need to admit that delivering high quality pictures is not our strong side. 14:09:51 no conference room to be seen in MUC 14:09:52 ook. let me take a shortcircuit before we kill each other: 14:10:03 Ganneff: and U'd like a break after this point 14:10:34 the current topic, as well as the two i paste after this line (topic changes), i bet we come out as even. so lets short circuit for now and mark them so. 14:10:35 #topic 4. excellent network connectivity 14:10:35 #topic 5. quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity 14:10:58 Ganneff: *break* 14:11:03 and now, a break of 5 minutes, then we go on 14:11:06 thanks. 14:11:11 #topic break until 16:16 14:18:07 ok. so. 14:18:24 #topic Continue debate 14:18:24 Now. Realistically i see "6. suitable accommodation in close proximity", "7. presentation facilities" and "9. accessibility" also as same. Leaves us "8. travel logistics". Where both are also strong, but I see MUC a little better there (better connected Airport as its a huge HUB for Lufthansa for example, more train connections as far as I know). Including being easier to reach without airplane from Southern Europe attendees (some ... 14:18:24 ... prefer train to flight). This unfortunately isnt the strongest point which clearly selects a venue, so: *vomit*. 14:18:24 There is the point that MUC has, as far as i know, a better government support, with them using it. How far we can trust that, Caceres gave us a nice lesson. 14:18:25 I honestly do not want two bids running, I do not also want to move the meeting. So I am open for suggestions from every participant and listener here. 14:19:18 ok, we cantinue here? 14:19:21 which topic? 14:19:28 Ganneff: i would want the topics we circuited to be marked revist if needed 14:19:36 see what i pasted. 14:20:05 i did :) 14:20:08 sorry, distracted. 14:20:30 Ganneff: Munich has the advantage that our goverment won't be elected till debconf 14:20:37 thats better than caceres, yes 14:20:37 last election prior to debconf is tomorrow. 14:20:57 (for munich) 14:21:28 ok. lets try a way (that didnt work with dc10, ha!): would any of the teams be willing to step back now and support the other, making theirs stronger? 14:21:30 Ganneff: I wouldn't set anything if danger is to loose an election 14:21:33 (you know, hope dies last) 14:21:53 Ganneff: I would consider to do that in case we're still "same level" in two months. But not as of today. 14:22:33 aba_MUC: the 2 months delay has two problems: first i imagine rra to come back then, then we have 3. second - it gets us much nearer to the global bid thing. i dislike that a bit 14:22:50 well we could ask RRA 14:23:03 Ganneff: I'd restrict today to berlin and munich - sorry, but RRA is really out. 14:23:08 Ganneff: I agree on disliking that. 14:23:14 (I didn't see any real contribution from Limux to Debian in the past. How will that change in the future?) 14:23:29 twerner_BER: isn't that off-topic? 14:23:36 aba_MUC: i dislike with the time shifting nearer to global 14:23:39 but frankly speaking, I don't see that Munich is doing much better than Berlin as of today. I don't see it the other way as well. 14:24:09 both bids do not seem to have finalized at least some parts of their stuff 14:24:25 or pre-finalized, at least 14:24:28 azeem_MUC: not possible in the short timeframe 14:24:41 so give us the same credits. 14:24:50 right, that's why I mean moving for 2 months might make sense 14:25:00 aba_MUC: our details are _much_ better imho 14:25:03 due to the on-going competition, it might make a better German bid overall in the end 14:25:14 so, we could either let Tolimar throw a coin, discuss for two more hours, or - other ideas? 14:25:19 otherwise, today's winner might sight back for a month and do something else first 14:25:20 i am against two month. but if we can not decide on one today, one month 14:25:29 no we need a decision now 14:25:40 ack 14:25:43 especially as noone presents a way to get out of this. (i hate moving it. really, i do) 14:25:44 talking to venues, hotels, .... 14:26:01 twerner_BER: does that mean you assume that we'll do better than you in the next month? 14:26:12 and - you cannot do definitive deals anyways until global decision? 14:26:18 oh please dont throw mud. that wont help us. 14:26:41 I'd prefer a decision today as well. 14:27:11 If I put my marketing voice away, I'd say both are equal. Of course, with marketing on Munich is better. 14:27:24 sooo. 14:27:47 counting team meetings, members, pages - BER is better 14:27:50 if we would do it like dc10, it would be "the globals decide", ie tolimar and me. 14:27:55 ok. 14:28:12 and anyways, I don't think we could come up with a consensus here today, so I assume you two need to decide. 14:28:21 but that does lead to one team being disappointed. are both teams ok with that and could stand us saying no to them? and/or would help the other team in the rest of dc11? 14:28:52 Ganneff: I'd still think munich is the better place, but I'd accept a no from you (well, that are the rules). 14:29:17 azeem? twerner? devil? 14:29:18 (how much I could do local-team for berlin - I don't know locations etc) 14:29:25 we would support every german team (but think we are better prepared) 14:29:39 ack 14:29:40 pre-planning = good delivery , so MUC not prepared 14:29:55 bluewater: we know you're storngly for berlin. 14:30:10 helping is even doing things like news for a website, for example. 14:30:39 Ganneff: we have someone who said he like to do website stuff 14:30:40 I'm certainly considering to help organizing future debconfs (10, 11, else) even if it is not Munich 14:30:43 Ganneff: it'd obviously be less helping if not in Munich - I'd assume that's the same for the berlin 14:30:49 but of course, I would do much more for Munich 14:30:50 (or different at least) 14:31:29 sure one cant do much work "vor ort". 14:31:51 yes a big local team is better 14:31:52 so. 14:32:01 #topic Decision from "the globals". 14:32:11 meh. 14:32:11 Tolimar: your floor, you start :) 14:32:26 twerner_BER: well, we didn't put all people in the wiki but just the currently real active ones. 14:32:36 Okay... Let's go to canossa ;) 14:32:43 aba_MUC: we did the same 14:33:11 twerner_BER: I will stop counting stuff like that. 14:33:15 that doesn't help. 14:33:48 First, I see one of the cities ahead of the other. It's not much, but it is ahead. And I don't take my "vote" lighlty. 14:34:39 To shorten it a bit: Both Teams are equall with regard to 3, 4, 5, 6, and 9. 14:36:08 To rate point 1 (affordable) correctly, it's quite early, but the numbers presented by the teams make it draw there, too. 14:36:33 That leaves the team and travel logistics. 14:37:18 I see a small advantage in travel logistics for MUC, but certainly not big enough to base the decission solly on that. 14:37:36 With regard to the local team... 14:38:49 (Wait for the discussion in the other channel to come to a conclussion.) 14:39:14 moving that over here (everyone please) 14:39:25 the topic of "move meeting a month or two" came up again 14:39:37 so I'd like to make a new meeting on Nov 7th. 14:39:52