17:59:17 <tzafrir> #startmeeting DebConf20 team meeting
17:59:17 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Jul  6 17:59:17 2020 UTC.  The chair is tzafrir. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:59:17 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
17:59:31 <tzafrir> #addchair nattie
17:59:41 <DLange> yeah, tag teaming!
17:59:41 <tzafrir> #topic roll call
17:59:50 <bittin^> here kinda
18:00:05 <tumbleweed> o/
18:00:10 <gwolf> ~o~
18:00:11 <DLange> \o
18:00:12 <lenharo> hi
18:00:14 <joostvb> aye
18:00:39 <bremner> quantumly superpositioned
18:00:44 <terceiro> hey
18:01:52 <nattie> hola
18:02:40 <tzafrir> #topic Last week's actions
18:03:06 <tzafrir> One action: highvoltage to email TOs about the DC20 reimbursement process
18:03:24 <tzafrir> He doesn't seem to be present.
18:03:37 <tumbleweed> he mentioned yesterday that he'd contacted them
18:04:01 <terceiro> I have some bits on that subject, maybe we want to add an explicit topic for it?
18:04:37 <tzafrir> OK, please do.
18:05:01 <urbec> moin
18:05:32 <DLange> pause music ~ the Agenda pad is being edited ~ pause music
18:05:40 <tzafrir> So let's switch to that topic?
18:05:49 <terceiro> let's
18:05:49 <tzafrir> #topic Reimbursement process
18:06:26 <terceiro> ok. I worked on the registration forms during the weekend, and implemented a new bursary category "expenses reimbursement".
18:06:29 <terceiro> my question is
18:06:39 <terceiro> do we really need attendees to select TOs upfront?
18:07:16 <terceiro> waiting for this type of detail might delay registration even more
18:07:36 <gwolf> AIUI, we have always done that "behind the scenes", by the treasurers / bursaries
18:08:16 <tumbleweed> terceiro: I'm sure we could do that afterwards
18:08:18 <DLange> yeah, we can assign this in the backend but it depends on whether highvoltage gets one process for all of them, not?
18:08:33 <gwolf> I think understanding which TO works best... is too much of a hassle for every attendee to think about individually... it is better to create knowledge
18:08:38 <DLange> because otherwise we'd need different forms or a superset of everything
18:08:52 <highvoltage> o/
18:08:55 <bittin^> my other meeting ended so here now
18:09:00 <tumbleweed> although if different TOs have different rules, we'd probably need to communicate those to attendees early
18:09:03 <highvoltage> (sorry had to talk to a neighbour who was complaining about another neighbour)
18:09:20 <DLange> lol, highvoltage
18:09:59 <highvoltage> I'm working on answers asap but in the meantime I'll jump in on bursaries and if we have to take on some more admin there if it can open registration earlier then we'll do that
18:10:38 <terceiro> highvoltage: the question is we don't want the people registering to choose TOs right?
18:10:48 <terceiro> i.e. we can assign TOs latter by ourselves
18:11:11 <terceiro> I guess details about the reimbursement procedure can come later as well
18:11:19 <terceiro> my concern is opening registration ASAP
18:11:56 <terceiro> because we also need to close them, specially the reimbursement part, with some lead time before debconf
18:12:09 <highvoltage> terceiro: yeah I think we can do that afterwards for sure
18:12:28 <tzafrir> #agreed participants need not select a Trusted Organization at registration time
18:12:51 <tzafrir> Anything more on that subject?
18:12:52 <gwolf> I don't think we will be swamped in reimbursement requests this time - AIUI our main complexity (and volume) comes from travel (bursaries)...
18:12:55 <tumbleweed> I think we need at least one TO on board with the scheme, before we can open reg for it
18:13:19 <gwolf> I expect by far most attendees will not require reimbursement of any kind
18:13:35 <tumbleweed> I don't want to be promising reibursement that we can't deliver on
18:13:51 <highvoltage> tumbleweed: 2/3 TOs are on board with this
18:13:55 <terceiro> nice
18:13:59 <joostvb> i guess quite a few attendees will not register at all
18:14:14 <terceiro> yeah I remember we needed to know that legal/fiscal feasibility of the whole thing
18:14:14 <tumbleweed> highvoltage: excellent
18:14:21 <highvoltage> tumbleweed: the biggest one has issues unrelated to us which is causing a bit of a delay
18:14:34 <bittin^> joostvb: don't you have to register to get the stream links etc or will they be posted public?
18:14:51 <gwolf> they are always made public
18:14:58 <gwolf> so there is no _real_ need for people to register
18:15:04 <bittin^> ah
18:15:21 <gwolf> ...people that register _might_ get some extras - i.e. the ability to participate proposing talks, receiving a shirt, etc.
18:15:44 <terceiro> also I will plead people to register to have a decent picture of attendance timezones
18:15:59 <DLange> yeah, that would be nice
18:16:05 <terceiro> FWIW I think we are done with this topic
18:16:06 <gwolf> terceiro: it will always be incomplete (and overcomplete) 😉
18:16:13 <highvoltage> +1 to what terceiro says
18:16:28 <tzafrir> So, next item:
18:16:51 <nattie> #topic t-shirts
18:17:21 <nattie> we have a logo, and some layout proposals
18:17:36 <bittin^> Was me that proposed this was wondering if it has been decided how/where the t-shirts should be printed and what logo/design etc?
18:17:50 <bittin^> if i remembered correctly there was some discussions yesterday but missed those
18:18:16 <nattie> #link https://salsa.debian.org/lenharo/drafts/-/blob/lenharo/DC20/DC20_Tshirts.svg
18:18:28 <DLange> #info we have printing proposals from Taiwan and from Brazil
18:18:37 <nattie> #link https://salsa.debian.org/maierjeff-guest/random-stuff/-/blob/master/DC20_Tshirts-alternatives.svg
18:19:31 * bittin^ likes Black and Red that feels Debian
18:19:37 <DLange> and we have designs from Brazil and Brazil :)
18:20:07 <highvoltage> ah finally a black t-shirt proposal
18:20:22 <lenharo> i think local printing is better at this moment. Will have more flexibility. Having an international supplier, could delay too much
18:20:23 <nattie> there is also the diversity version of the logo, but that will most likely only work if we choose one particular supplier (Printful)
18:20:34 <terceiro> AIUI the colors are just examples
18:20:48 <bittin^> nattie: would say that would work maybe as an extra t-shirt or such as said in the meeting last week
18:20:54 <gwolf> bittin^: Yes. Sliding into off-topicness, while I appreciate having a "diversity option" in our winning logo... The logo looks _much better_ IMO in its monochrome version (red) than in the rainbow one.
18:21:04 <nattie> bittin^: yeah, i'm the one who said that
18:21:16 <lenharo> yes, i use black and white, just to  see how it work. we could use any primary color.
18:21:26 <olasd> (looks like the last #topic didn't register)
18:21:44 <tzafrir> So is there anything with t-shirts that blocks opening registration?
18:21:52 <tzafrir> #topic t-shirts
18:22:08 <terceiro> tzafrir: not really, the sizes are in my MR already
18:22:26 * tumbleweed will review
18:22:41 <terceiro> it's not blocking registrations, but it would be nice if we decided on a plan with enough lead time
18:23:10 <terceiro> and empower the volunteer(s?) to go ahead with the process
18:23:42 <DLange> sizes will be different per region then
18:23:52 <DLange> how do we want to sort that?
18:23:55 <tumbleweed> depending on the decision we make
18:25:32 <lenharo> DLange, most of sizes is similar in all suppliers.
18:25:49 <nattie> and any differences can be converted as we go
18:25:51 <DLange> gee, that's true for you and me lenharo but others :o)
18:25:57 <nattie> which we've done previously
18:26:05 <bittin^> just guessing here would it not be better to use Printful or something that ships around the world, be easier then making t-shirts in like a lot of countries, but i bet you already discussed this so i guess you know better then me
18:26:05 <terceiro> lenharo proposed a sizes chart, and we will need to make sure suppliers follow that or we need to do the conversion
18:26:47 <tumbleweed> is there any reason not to make a decision on design and printers today?
18:27:00 <tumbleweed> we're not waiting for any more information, right?
18:27:23 <tumbleweed> it feels like getting those choices finalized will allow us to move on
18:28:09 <gwolf> AIUI we are even time-pressed to get the printing started
18:28:14 <tumbleweed> yeah
18:28:33 <tumbleweed> so, I see two implied choices here
18:28:49 <tumbleweed> 1. local printing (which doesn't have defined printers, but I guess brazil and taiwan?)
18:29:03 <tumbleweed> 2. printful (or similar, but nobody has proposed any alternatives)
18:29:11 <gwolf> Do we have a price comparison?
18:29:18 <gwolf> Of the two components (printing and sending)
18:29:25 <gwolf> That's the main point we need to decide...
18:29:39 <gwolf> I have the feeling doing it via printful will be WAY easier on us
18:29:47 <tzafrir> Is the quality comparable?
18:29:51 <gwolf> otherwise we will need a lot of volunteer time for handling logistics...
18:30:11 <lenharo> shipping from Brazil to others countries is too expansive.
18:30:28 <lenharo> printing here, is about 5USD
18:30:34 <gwolf> lenharo: So what do you suggest if we print in .br?
18:30:47 <DLange> we can do both
18:31:09 <DLange> local production for "demand hubs" and "buy your own online" for everybody else
18:31:22 <DLange> we don't need exclusivity
18:31:38 <gwolf> of course, we don't need to have a single provider for everybody. Of course, it adds some complexity. But it's possible. How expensive is printing+shipping a single shirt in printful?
18:31:41 <DLange> but some 100 T-Shirts in one location would be good for decent prices
18:31:53 <gwolf> We have a couple tens people in Brazil (+Mercosur, I'd add probably)
18:32:32 <lenharo> gwolf, as i see, printful is about 15USD to print, and 10-15USD to ship
18:33:03 <DLange> may be Brazil can ship to the US as well?
18:33:21 <gwolf> quite a bit more expensive, yes.
18:33:23 <gregoa> https://www.printful.com/shipping#shipping-rates
18:33:46 <bittin^> there is also Cafepress and Spreadshirt that some Swedish Demoparties that moved online last weekend used, but not sure what it costs and how much money will go to Debian and how much % the printing/shipping company will steal
18:33:58 <terceiro> it sounds like this is a technical decision. I propose we empower the people doing the work to decide on the specifics
18:34:23 <gwolf> lenharo: printful is US$6 to ship the first item
18:34:27 <gregoa> so that's 1 t-shirt USA €3.60, EU €3.69 … worldwide €5.45
18:34:29 <bittin^> terceiro: sounds like a good idea
18:34:38 <tumbleweed> lenharo: are you OK with terceiro's proposal?
18:35:17 <lenharo> yes. But i would like some help too.
18:36:11 <lenharo> how about layout?
18:36:37 <nattie> we could do another poll?
18:36:41 <tumbleweed> we were previously talking about masks too. Nobody has mentioned those yet, today
18:36:41 <nattie> two questions, front and back?
18:36:49 <tumbleweed> nattie: I wouldn't want to spend a week polling
18:37:12 <tumbleweed> unless we're very confident that we can print & ship in a couple of weeks
18:37:31 <gwolf> tumbleweed: overdemocratic decisions are slow by design
18:37:37 <nattie> in that case, let's just take a quick straw poll in here?
18:37:38 <gwolf> If we are to do it, we should hurry
18:37:43 <bittin^> tumbleweed: maybe decide now or a couple of days
18:38:01 <tzafrir> After the meeting?
18:38:16 <tumbleweed> I'd love to have the t-shirt team say: Here's what we propose to do. Any objections?
18:38:31 <nattie> good idea
18:38:37 <tumbleweed> that can include design too
18:38:40 <terceiro> that is where I'm trying to get as well
18:38:51 <DLange> one person taking care of the whole T-Shirt situation would be awesome
18:39:01 <DLange> like assign batches to locations as well etc
18:39:15 <DLange> so we don't have too many in one location and too few in others
18:39:18 <joostvb> and a huge task, too
18:39:27 <gwolf> it is a huge task, I agree
18:39:38 <tumbleweed> it can be a bigger or smaller task, depending on the approach used
18:39:50 <tumbleweed> (e.g. using printful can massively lighten the load)
18:40:02 <gwolf> I would very much rather pay a bit more to a company that has the needed logistics internally, not doing several stages of delivery
18:40:06 <tumbleweed> and the people who will be doing that work, are the best ones to make that decision
18:40:08 <gwolf> Anyway - I will leave now
18:40:49 <DLange> o/ gwolf
18:41:13 <DLange> seems we have no volunteer(s)?
18:41:32 <DLange> personally I'm fine with no T-Shirts, too
18:41:46 <nattie> it's sorted
18:41:48 <DLange> (we did not promise the perk to sponsors, so no obligations from that side)
18:42:02 <bittin^> download the logos and create your own?
18:42:04 <terceiro> I thought lenharo volunteered already last week?
18:42:06 <gwolf> My opinion is that the advantages of printful are too big
18:42:16 <gwolf> but anyway, o/ !
18:42:27 <joostvb> пон 06 20:36 < lenharo> yes. But i would like some help too.
18:42:57 <DLange> I read that to mean help for the local production and distribution
18:43:05 <DLange> not take over the whole responsibility
18:43:53 <lenharo> i can do this
18:43:55 <highvoltage> can local groups who want to print a bunch of t-shirts ask for reimbursements?
18:43:55 <terceiro> well we need someone to organize the process and make sure it happens; as with other things we don't expect that person to do everything alone
18:44:16 <highvoltage> (I mean, yes they can, but, are we going to tell them somewhere?)
18:44:53 <DLange> would they need to take care of production for registrants in their region?
18:45:13 <tumbleweed> I would assume so
18:45:37 <DLange> then we should distribute that into to -team
18:46:05 <DLange> I guess we want a "chain of trust" a bit?!?
18:46:21 <bittin^> another stupid question: does all regions have someone that has time with that, i agree with gwolf that Printful or such would be better
18:46:43 <highvoltage> it will likely end up being a combination of both
18:46:43 <bittin^> but thats just my personal opinion
18:46:52 <highvoltage> services like printful won't reach everyone in time
18:46:53 <DLange> highvoltage +1
18:47:07 <tumbleweed> not that they have to reach everyone in time
18:47:11 <highvoltage> (my local postal service has been unavailable for months now)
18:47:26 <DLange> gee, highvoltage will knit his own :)
18:47:27 <highvoltage> also true, but some might like to get together and make their own
18:47:42 <nattie> highvoltage: FCVO "get together", but yeah
18:47:44 <highvoltage> alas, I have no time to knit
18:48:09 <tumbleweed> this discussion doesn't seem to be going anywhere useful
18:48:17 <DLange> true, just fun
18:48:20 <tumbleweed> if anyone would like to print locally, I'd say they should be talking to lenharo
18:48:25 <tumbleweed> ASAP
18:48:25 <nattie> yep
18:48:37 <tzafrir> #agreed lenharo will be in charge of producing t-shirts
18:48:44 <tumbleweed> so, let's talk about next steps
18:48:57 <tumbleweed> do we need to set any deadlines here
18:49:01 <bittin^> #topic Open the Registrations ?
18:49:09 <tumbleweed> bittin^: wait
18:49:12 <bittin^> tumbleweed: okay
18:49:34 <tzafrir> #agreed local groups who wish to print shirts on their own should coordinate with lenharo ASAP
18:49:37 <tzafrir> Topic?
18:49:39 <tumbleweed> lenharo: any idea when we need to start printing?
18:49:53 <tumbleweed> I guess this depends on suppliers
18:50:00 <lenharo> tumbleweed, to have t-shirts before DC, i think we have to order before july 27.
18:50:21 <tumbleweed> for brazil?
18:50:55 <lenharo> even to printfull or similar. 2-3 weeks usually to delivery.
18:51:14 <bittin^> so suggesting a deadline 1-2 weeks before that?
18:51:20 <tumbleweed> it seems it'll take them about 1 week to print, at the moment
18:51:26 <tumbleweed> in EU
18:51:33 <tumbleweed> and 1 month in US
18:52:19 <tumbleweed> we'de previously said july 12th could be the swag registration deadilne
18:52:26 <tumbleweed> given that's a week from now, that's probably too soon
18:52:32 <terceiro> yeah
18:52:52 <tumbleweed> we could aim for 19th? or 26th?
18:53:08 <tumbleweed> 26th would give us 3 weeks to order, print, ship
18:53:42 <tumbleweed> is that reasonable?
18:53:44 <nattie> yeah
18:54:01 <terceiro> I think we need to accept that some/most people will get it after dc20
18:54:02 <lenharo> it's a huge problem if for some people don't received on time?
18:54:07 <tumbleweed> it probably means people in large parts of the world won't get it in time
18:54:24 <tzafrir> #agreed deadline for registration with t-shirt: Jul-26th
18:54:28 <tumbleweed> OK
18:54:49 <tumbleweed> So, that means we have 3 weeks to select suppliers and finalize designs
18:55:16 <tumbleweed> if you want to call for more local groups to print locally, that probably needs to happen this week
18:55:26 <tumbleweed> if you want to get a test print from printful to EU, there's probably time
18:56:00 <lenharo> i will talk in person to correios (Brasil postal office) to see if have a cheap way to send.
18:56:01 <tumbleweed> lenharo: is there anything else you need from us right now?
18:56:22 <lenharo> tumbleweed, probably not
18:56:40 <tumbleweed> OK, shall we move on?
18:56:52 <DLange> awesome, thanks lenharo for taking that job up!
18:57:05 <bittin^> can always continue to t-shirt discussion next week also and thanks lenharo for taking care of the job
18:57:18 <tumbleweed> I'd really prefer it if the t-shirt discussions continude outside the meetings rather than in them
18:57:25 <nattie> +1
18:57:26 <highvoltage> lenharo: fwiw cheap is probably not very reliable atm, probably better to send with courier
18:57:35 <tzafrir> #topic Open registration
18:57:38 <tumbleweed> it'd be nice to be confirming decisons in meetings, rather than throwing new ideas around
18:58:13 <DLange> decisions need proposals though :)
18:58:14 <tzafrir> So, what's blocking it right now?
18:58:16 <highvoltage> it feels like the same questions and answers run in a loop sometimes :)
18:58:27 * tumbleweed needs to do some review
18:58:34 <tumbleweed> thanks for picking a lot of this up, terceiro
18:58:53 <terceiro> if we get the code in, we should be able to open later this week
18:59:02 <tzafrir> Anything that needs discussing here?
18:59:09 <terceiro> not really
18:59:40 <terceiro> we still need instructions for the expense reimbursements
18:59:50 <tumbleweed> it seems like stripe payment may come together in time for registration, too
18:59:54 <terceiro> but it's just work of writing it, not need to block everyone with ti
18:59:59 <bittin^> tumbleweed: o/
19:00:30 <tzafrir> Anything on that topic?
19:01:07 <tzafrir> #topic AoB
19:01:23 <tzafrir> Any other business?
19:01:41 <bittin^> not from me, another meeting same time next week ?
19:02:26 <tzafrir> I not, next meeting is on Mon, Jul-13
19:02:53 <azeem> now that the CFP closed, we could possibly discuss the rough outline of th conf?
19:03:27 <azeem> and/or did we tell the content team how many slots they need to/can fill?
19:03:35 <tzafrir> At the meeting, or after?
19:03:56 <azeem> I don't know
19:04:23 <nattie> after is probably better
19:04:23 <azeem> maybe it makes sense to put that on next week's agenda, there will probably be a few more late submissions
19:04:40 <nattie> yeah
19:04:53 <terceiro> do we need to block everytone to discuss that?
19:04:59 <nattie> not really
19:05:08 <nattie> how many submissions do you have so far?
19:05:12 <terceiro> ~55
19:05:17 <nattie> cool :)
19:05:21 <DLange> may be a content team meeting?
19:05:45 <bittin^> nice and yeah sounds like a good idea
19:06:17 <azeem> ok, it was just usally decided in the whole team how many tracks and slots there will be IIRC
19:06:29 <azeem> anyway, NOB from me
19:07:16 <terceiro> sure the decision can be made here, but we need to do some homework before that to not drive everyone crazy
19:08:20 <tzafrir> Anyway, of those there are roughly 40 of 45 minutes, and one sprint.
19:08:30 <DLange> FTR: feedback from SOTM was that two parallel tracks, 10hrs, over two days ways too dense while some people found the breaks in the schedule too long
19:08:45 <DLange> indiebio has all the glory details and a pad with feedback as well
19:08:53 <azeem> what's SOTM?
19:08:56 <DLange> (don't want to share that here)
19:09:02 <bittin^> State of the map i think?
19:09:04 <DLange> State Of The Map
19:09:08 <azeem> ok, thanks
19:09:15 <DLange> ~the OpenStreetMap DebConf
19:09:19 <bittin^> Openstreetmap conference if i don't remember wrong
19:09:56 <tzafrir> Anyway, I guess we can continue this discussion following the meeting, right?
19:10:14 <nattie> +1
19:10:45 <tzafrir> #agreed Next meeting is on Mon Jul-13-2020 at 18:00 UTC
19:10:55 <bittin^> sounds good, will watch Dreamhack Tonight and then go to bed, but will try to attend next week if not read the minutes
19:11:01 <bittin^> thanks for this evening
19:11:04 <tzafrir> #endmeeting