17:59:30 #startmeeting 17:59:30 Meeting started Mon Jun 22 17:59:30 2020 UTC. The chair is nattie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 17:59:30 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 17:59:36 #topic roll call 17:59:42 say hi if you're here for this 17:59:48 hi 17:59:51 hi 17:59:52 "hi if you're here for this" 17:59:53 o/ 17:59:56 Hello 17:59:58 o/ 18:00:21 hi if you're here for this 18:00:42 #topic logo proposals 18:00:46 o/ 18:01:04 #link https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/20/Artwork/LogoProposals 18:01:38 very good options :-) 18:01:53 surprisingly, if we ask people to propose logos, people propose logos 18:02:01 yeah :) 18:02:03 so, DLange proposed 3 days for voting on them. Sound reasonable? 18:02:10 fine for me 18:02:22 so a Friday deadline or a Thursday one? 18:02:32 Sunday? 18:02:38 I mean we have the next meeting on Monday 18:02:44 sure, we could give it a week 18:02:56 and nothing amazing will happen on the weekend in between anyways :) 18:02:56 that would be an interesting value of "three days" 18:03:03 I'm an engineer 18:03:06 close enough :) 18:03:41 #agreed the deadline to vote for logos will be Sunday 28th June 18:04:01 3 days with a safety factor of 2 18:04:05 #topic t-shirts 18:04:22 we have info for Andrew's offer on the agenda 18:04:33 lenharo: do you have any info to add, did you find anything over the week? 18:04:47 i got another quote from printful. 18:05:04 give us a rough idea? 18:05:18 t-shirt price: ~15 USD and shipping ~5-10USD 18:05:51 that's a bit pricey 18:05:53 a little pricier than Andrew's option 18:06:03 and i didn't have answer about shipping from another quote. 18:06:12 we can do that in Europe or in the States cheaper and there's more developers there 18:06:13 lenharo: could you remind us how much the other place you looked at was for the t-shirts themselves? 18:06:31 DLange: printful *is* in the US and Europe 18:06:36 nattie, about 10USD 18:06:40 but yeah, it's a bit pricey 18:06:45 I think the online shops take a premium over going through the admin in-person. So if I get the shirts printed, then post them in my own envelopes etc, that's cheaper, predictably. 18:07:07 which is probably better for SA, but not for Europe, dunno 18:07:10 don't forget andrew's shirts aren't cotton 18:07:22 *nods* 18:07:24 maybe we should ask him for a cotton quote 18:07:42 i'd be more than happy to have masks/scarves from Andrew, but am less enthusiastic about the non-cotton shirts 18:07:58 yeah, I think that's a common position 18:08:20 can somebody ask him for Cotton via email? He's dutyfully and rightly sleeping now. Hopefully. 18:08:25 since you're the main person in contact with him, could you inquire of him about that? 18:08:33 gee, I feared that 18:08:41 action me :) 18:09:02 #action DLange to contact Andrew Lee about a quote for cotton t-shirts from Taiwan 18:09:53 #info shirts from Printful would be about USD15 with USD5-10 for shipping 18:09:57 so, aside from specifics of suppliers 18:10:08 #info shirts from lenharo's other supplier would be about USD10, but there is not yet a shipping quote 18:10:13 it seems like shirts + masks for 300 are within budget, right? 18:10:20 yes 18:10:28 should we set a budget for them? 18:10:36 yeah, let's 18:10:56 that could wait for supplier selection, too... 18:11:05 and some more sponsor feedback 18:11:16 so, next week or the week after? 18:11:16 budget for the worst case, spend less 18:11:29 wouldnt it cost cheaper if we organize one supplier per continent? 18:11:53 shipping between continents isn't necessarily the expensive bit 18:11:56 coordination is a cost too 18:12:23 I'm in favour of the idea 18:12:36 because then we get T-Shirts for the conference and not after 18:13:00 we could set a max price and then each continent can find a supplier for that price and have them made there 18:13:00 is international shipping that backlogged atm? 18:13:09 yes 18:13:24 Andrew can't even give an estimate and DHL is backlogged 2 weeks 18:13:34 (from my company's shippings) 18:14:31 The cheap envelopes are neither Priority nor Air Mail 18:15:01 so typically 3 weeks plus 2 on top now 18:15:29 Inter-Continent we can do 1-2 weeks safely (the latter in the US :)) 18:15:29 so, you think that it's still possible to get shirts to attendees before the event, at all? 18:16:08 i think it would be foolish to guarantee it 18:16:13 let's assume we pick a logo and printer next week 18:16:24 yes, I think we can do that 18:16:24 we could say we hope to, but nothing is really guaranteed atm 18:16:42 nattie: yeah, no guarantees. My question is whether we should try 18:16:42 (but I'm with nattie ... only best effort guaranteed) 18:17:03 we'd need a process to decide who gets a free T-Shirt and who doesn't 18:17:17 and ... a payment method or better a shop supplier for the latter 18:17:21 we'd also need registration to have bee nopen 18:18:02 probably safer to have people expect them after the conference, then be pleasantly surprised if they show up early 18:18:15 lenharo: any idea what the lead time for printful is? 18:18:36 nattie: what I'm trying to get at is: Should we be pushing hard on shirts now 18:18:45 or do them after the event, with sponsor logos etc 18:18:55 tumbleweed, let me check. 18:19:15 no sponsor logos please 18:19:24 OK, that does simplify things 18:19:28 we can't get that guaranteed in de-central printing 18:19:42 and if they are broken / wrong, we ... get issues 18:19:55 we did not promise this perk for DC20 online, so we can as well ... not do it 18:19:56 So, we need: quantities & sizes (means guessing or registration having been opened for long enough), printing lead time, shipping time, customs time 18:20:08 don't have this information at the site. but i guess no more than 5 days 18:20:11 So what do sponsors get? Only a logo on the web site? (besides platinum ones) 18:20:28 and on the streams / recordings 18:20:39 and a nice thank you on the opening for the higher levels 18:20:57 to open registration, we need to know what sizes are available (i.e. have picked suppliers) 18:21:08 (we have no brochure and no flyer for DC20 online, so we've been making this up on the go as much as possible) 18:21:48 and have a payment option, if we're taking paid shirt orders 18:22:12 I think we can't do that without a shop 18:22:21 tumbleweed, i guess, we can use some default size table, and convert when supplier is choosed. 18:22:33 wouldn't that be a paid registration level? 18:22:49 people have been asking for that funnily 18:22:58 valhalla: that would be an easy solution, yes 18:23:11 or something like meals/accom would usually be 18:23:17 we can bill for things 18:23:19 oh - I'm late for the meeting, but will try to follow 18:23:21 lenharo: that works for the mid-sizes, but not for the extremes (i.e. how big and small do they go) 18:23:31 I guess if people pay $100+ for the conference, I'm happy we invest a (relative) lot of time for getting them their swag 18:23:59 but not for no benefit to Debian / DebConf 18:24:05 our decision was free, 50 and 200 18:24:15 presumably we could guarantee shirts for 50 and 200 18:24:30 50 could be hard incl. shipping 18:24:32 and do first-come-first-serve for free. Or something 18:24:39 depending on where the person lives 18:25:39 you think so? With andrew's pricing it's $10 materials + $10 shipping 18:26:15 * gwolf cheers for the insistence of the shirts being cotton 18:26:16 For Latin America, i guess i will spend no more than 15 USD to shipping. (and about 6 USD to produce here in Curitiba) 18:26:40 I doubt he can ship for $10 world-wide 18:26:50 but you think more than $40? 18:26:52 I only asked for Europe and US prices, they are in that range 18:27:07 lenharo: We discussed earlier (when I was pursuing my friend to do the printing as she has repeatedly done) shipping to a central point per country or something like that 18:27:21 Pacific Islands, sure. But we won't have many $50 registrants from there. So we can take the risk if we want to. 18:27:33 but getting the logistics right with multilevel delivery... gets too complicated 18:27:43 we are trying to send to individuals... 18:27:45 We can always decline to ship to strange looking people with borrowed credit cards :o) 18:28:00 DLange: so, are you objecting to $50 = shirt? Or wanting to raise the $50? or just thinking it through? 18:28:16 DLange: Why discriminate me :-( 18:28:41 gwolf, nice... 18:28:48 I think it is fine, tumbleweed. We just need to be aware that this may be below cost for some of the $50 registrations. 18:29:07 that seems acceptable, yeah 18:29:12 gwolf: you can have my credit card any time 18:29:23 or take tumbleweed's. It has a better limit :) 18:29:36 * tumbleweed hides 18:29:47 DLange: /me does not like no pesky limits 18:30:09 so are we fine with guaranteeing shirts for 50 and 200? 18:30:23 I think so 18:30:23 it appears that way 18:30:26 +1 18:30:30 #agreed shirts will be guaranteed for the USD50 and USD200 registration levels 18:30:31 yes 18:30:32 although probably up to a registration swag deadline? 18:30:35 and for free registrations, up to a number, FIFO? 18:30:50 should we attempt to set that now, or next week? 18:31:11 tumbleweed: shipping swag seems impossible to do 18:31:34 gwolf: i'm assuming shirt & mask is the only swag 18:31:51 https://debconf20.debconf.org/schedule/important-dates/ currently has this cut-off at some time in July 18:31:57 oh, right, I understood the #agreed point + a n extra swag stuff 18:32:00 NM 18:32:14 given there are no sponsor logos, calling it swag isprobably confusing 18:32:20 but from the registration pov, it's swag :P 18:33:32 so, given shipping may be 5 weeks, should we say mid-July? 18:33:59 12th? 18:34:17 fine for me 18:34:24 that gives us just under three weeks, i think 18:34:29 yeah. But we should ask people for their Debian contributions for the T-Shirt. 18:34:48 i don't think we get *that* many chancers for t-shirts 18:34:52 I mean DDs, DMs, previous DebConf attendees, all fine. Known LUG members, fine. 18:35:13 But random people from random country, we never heard of ... may be not. 18:35:15 visas, yes, t-shirts, probably not as much 18:35:31 no visa for DebConf20 Online 18:35:33 do we want a "name your contributions" field then? 18:35:34 I hope 18:35:54 yeah, just one line "What are your contributions to Debian?" 18:35:56 DLange: that's what i mean - less likelihood of spurious registrations when there's no chance of a visa 18:36:00 who is doing this vetting? 18:36:05 bursary team? 18:36:14 nattie: you have no idea what people do for free T-Shirts 18:36:30 (I have worked for marketing agencies...) 18:36:43 tumbleweed: yeah 18:36:57 And we just offer the generic sizes we currently have 18:36:59 they are all bored now anyways. I hope :o) 18:37:01 with no sizing chart 18:37:16 gee, that will not work 18:37:31 remember ZA sizes vs. Brazil sizes? 18:37:31 https://salsa.debian.org/debconf-team/public/websites/dc20/-/blob/master/settings.py#L204-212 18:37:48 well, then we need to pick a supplier's sizing chart 18:38:05 IIRC taiwan sizes were also far from normal 18:38:18 JFDI 18:38:21 :) 18:38:41 payment is still paypal 18:38:47 although we can push for SPI stripe 18:38:47 "you are being shipped this weight loss motivation from Taiwan" 18:39:05 or prod debian.fr again about stripe 18:39:05 XD 18:39:07 did the Debian France stripe go somewhere? 18:39:26 aah, not yet. Stalled at step 0 ;-) 18:40:23 SPI seems to want to keep the 5% fee retrospectively and in the future 18:40:30 http://spi-inc.org/meetings/agendas/2020/2020-06-22/ (meeting is later tonight) 18:40:46 so we probably will have to move more towards using the 0% TOs 18:43:10 so, what should we do about sizes? 18:43:31 wait a week until we know where we order from? 18:43:37 nattie: Send random-sized shirts to everybody, in the end it won't matter... 18:43:44 I think T-Shirts at random sizes are not such a good idea 18:43:57 I know I will probably fit in _a_ small-size shirt produced somewhere in the planet... 18:44:06 if we're ordering from multiple places, this gets hard 18:44:23 I guess we just provide a bunch of sizing charts :P 18:44:28 and maybe let them select their provider 18:44:34 or convert from a reasonably well-known chart? 18:44:55 I'd provide multiple size charts 18:45:19 those that care can find their size and the people that always order XL are at their own fault then 18:45:31 We could let fields (height, breast) open, i people fill it. And who will produce convert to specific size 18:45:50 I would pick one chart now, then convert to the actual provider charts when ordering 18:45:51 s/i people/and people 18:46:23 what about extreme sizes? (whose availability will depend on the provider) 18:46:23 terceiro: +1 18:46:47 * tumbleweed prodded debian france again 18:47:31 i was looking, and https://www.printful.com/custom/mens/t-shirts/gildan-2000-ultra-cotton-t-shirt, size chart, is similar from what we have here. 18:47:34 valhalla: true. Also colors vary. We cannot get the same colors everywhere. 18:47:40 Unless it is black and white. 18:47:43 we pick a chart that includes then, and if provides can't make them we apologize. 18:47:49 I mean this is hard enough already 18:47:55 or we ship from elsewhere 18:48:01 or that 18:48:05 the 5 people that this affects, we can do manually 18:48:10 yes 18:48:37 someone remind me who the t-shirts team is? :) 18:48:47 DLange: well, people can fit inside a charteause t-shirt just as well as in a fuchsia one :D 18:49:42 you'll redesign them anyways, valhalla. And then we all want yours :o) 18:50:09 terceiro: I think it's currently lenharo 18:50:47 and Andrew Lee + Yao Wei 18:50:59 * gwolf adds valhalla to the T-Shirt team 18:51:16 (me and my mouth/hands_on_the_keyboards) 18:51:26 to make anisa's idea fly we need gwolf's friend to ship to the US and find somebody in Europe 18:51:38 (EU free trade zone) 18:52:10 DLange: It could be possible. But I didn't even get her to quote, as it's .. a whole logistics operation worth geting crazy by itself 18:52:53 there has been a wide ranging discussion. Can we try to get some conclusions? 18:52:54 if somebody has not taken care of large-scale distribution, I don't want to make DC20 their testbed... 18:53:10 to me it seems this topic needs a bit more between-the-meetings work 18:53:18 indeed 18:53:19 +1 to that 18:53:23 yes 18:53:28 Oh - about who gets a shirt - Would you agree if we count talk authors as if having paid? 18:53:29 i think we've managed to agree a few things, at any rate 18:53:40 gwolf: +1 18:53:41 gwolf: i think that's a good idea 18:53:44 (I mean, "delivering a talk" would count as the ~US$50) 18:53:49 orga team too 18:54:00 everyone good with this? (i should hope so) 18:54:05 tumbleweed: obviously 😉 18:54:09 yes 18:54:11 Maybe even video! 18:54:24 #agreed for purposes of t-shirts, orga team and speakers are deemed to have paid USD 50 18:54:40 (that means that as long as they've registered by the swag deadline, they are guaranteed a shirt) 18:54:43 should we go to AOB and keep talking about t-shirts between meetings? 18:55:08 #topic AOB 18:55:13 I'll prod the finance side of registration, and try to get a form going 18:55:15 so *is* there any other business? 18:55:21 shirt team: I'd like a list of sizes for the registration 18:55:27 (and at least 1 size chart) 18:55:43 tumbleweed, i will work on this.. 18:55:52 thanks 18:55:53 cheers lenharo 18:56:02 * nattie points at the AOB sign 18:56:16 anything aside from setting the next meeting? 18:56:24 sponsors 18:56:34 DLange, anisa: Any updates to sponsors on the site, yet? 18:56:47 anisa has just collected the numbers 18:56:57 yeah I saw that 18:57:03 we have about 8,000 USD for DC20 Online confirmed 18:57:03 but I'm asking specifically about logos 18:57:19 hm? 18:57:32 we've still got the original dc20 sponsors on the site 18:57:48 surely some need to be moved / copied to dc21? 18:58:02 yes 18:58:32 OK, I'll wait for requests from the sponsors team 18:58:37 yes I can do that 18:58:52 tumbleweed: we can do that ourselves 18:58:59 even better :) 18:59:03 we're good at massaging the yaml files by now :) 18:59:23 you'll need help for removing dc20 sponsors, though 18:59:44 you underestimate my postgres foo 19:00:16 but that is why I was looking to do stuff after the bulk of sponsors replied 19:00:21 django admin > direct changes to sponsors in postgres please :) 19:00:29 yikes, so you do it :D 19:01:00 just let him know what needs moving 19:01:08 or me FWIW 19:01:11 anisa: please prod tumbleweed or myself once you are ready for the first logo shuffeling round 19:01:15 or terceiro 19:01:21 soo many options, great! 19:02:04 should i stick up an action for that? 19:02:23 nah, it's our day business 19:02:33 ok 19:02:35 Okay :) Thank you all 19:02:38 anything else? 19:02:45 next meeting? 19:02:48 next meeting, same time, same channel, next week? 19:02:58 yes 19:03:04 ack 19:03:10 ok 19:03:12 #agreed next meeting 29 June, 18:00 UTC 19:03:18 #endmeeting