19:58:23 #startmeeting DebConf 2020 bid review 19:58:23 Meeting started Thu Jan 17 19:58:23 2019 UTC. The chair is tumbleweed. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:58:23 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 19:58:40 Ohai 19:58:52 DLange: you want to introduce this? 19:58:59 hi! 19:59:03 yep, will do. Thank you tumbleweed. 19:59:17 Thank you very much for joining the DC20 bid presentation meeting. 19:59:17 We welcome the teams from Lisbon and Haifa to this meeting and everybody else who wants to listen in. Please feel free to ask questions at any time. 19:59:20 We will discuss the bids roughly following 19:59:22 #link https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/General/Handbook/Bids/PriorityList . 19:59:25 After this meeting the DebConf committee will discuss the bids as documented, the lessons learned during the visits and the results from today's meeting. 19:59:28 We plan to announce the winning bid in February 2019. 19:59:31 We have the bid pages from Haifa at 19:59:31 #link https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/20/Bids/Haifa/ 19:59:31 and the bid page from Lisbon at 19:59:31 #link https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/20/Bids/Lisbon 19:59:42 While nattie and tumbleweed were on a delegation visit, the teams filled 19:59:42 #link https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/20/Bids/Haifa/CheckList 19:59:42 and 19:59:42 #link https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/20/Bids/Lisbon/CheckList 19:59:43 following the formal DebConf location checklist (https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/General/Handbook/Bids/LocationCheckList). 19:59:49 . :) 20:00:00 #topic Roll Call 20:00:17 who is here from the bids? who else is here? 20:00:23 Didier Raboud, DebConf Committee 20:00:24 please say hi and state your affilication 20:00:31 Stefano Rivera, DebConf Committee 20:00:38 Daniel Lange, DebConf Committee 20:00:41 Lucas Nussbaum, DebConf Committee 20:01:02 Tzafrir Cohen, Haifa team 20:01:19 Talat Batheesh, Haifa team 20:01:26 Jose M Calhariz, Lisbon Team with more people 20:01:27 Lior Kaplan, Haifa team 20:01:44 jdsm, Lisbon Team 20:01:58 Marco and Simao with me 20:02:02 Hi, I'm Jonathan Carter, DebConf Committee 20:02:04 Tamir Gadot, Haifa team 20:02:55 ok, Haifa, are you ready to go first? 20:03:19 George Kesaev, Haifa Team 20:03:33 Tzafrir - do you want the honors ? 20:03:37 We just updated the bid. The introduction is there. 20:03:52 #topic Haifa introduction 20:04:00 Haifa team, could you please tell us about your bid in 5-10 lines. What are your bid's strength, what are the weaknesses? 20:04:02 #link https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/20/Bids/Haifa/ 20:04:30 Bid's strong points are: 20:05:12 good support from the university and the city, 20:05:43 Everything near by, inluding the dorms 20:06:00 reasonably priced 20:06:14 good views and such 20:06:25 Weaknesses: 20:06:39 Not at a city center 20:06:51 Anybody else wants to comment? 20:06:59 still on the strong side - Both city / Uni already hosted WikiMania 2011 (720 attendees) 20:07:10 "Haifa's population is heterogeneous - Israeli Jews comprise some 82% of the population, almost 14% are Christians (the majority of whom are Arab Christians) and some 4% are Muslims." <- that adds up to 100%, how welcome is non-religious people there? 20:07:40 strong - Foreign ministry is expected to help with visas (if needed, and process starts early) 20:08:26 That is under the assumption that anybody has a listed religion. I'm personally listed as Jewish, though I don't hold any such faith. I expect no such problems 20:08:53 Very... but secular / non-relgious here are still mostly jewish. Both Tzafrir and me are secular (: 20:09:04 I also think it's great that you have someone from the university on the team 20:09:07 tzafrir_laptop: is the assumption about anybody from Israel, or does it include visitors? 20:09:19 in my experience israel is a great place to visit with incredibly friendly and welcoming people (just from my personal experience as an outsider) 20:09:44 valhalla_: from Israel (or from the city. That statistics applies to city residents 20:10:30 I'm going to give Haifa 3 more minutes, and then we move to Lisbon's introduction 20:10:42 we can cover more qestions later 20:11:47 from what I saw the compact venue is a strong point. Also, the support from university and city (although we have yet to see what costs will look like) 20:11:51 tumbleweed: should I hold back questions for now? 20:12:10 yeah, let's do the intros first 20:12:10 highvoltage: yeah, let's handle questions later 20:12:16 righto 20:12:39 It looks like Haifa is finished, let's move to Lisbon 20:12:44 #topic Lisbon introduction 20:12:51 Lisbon team, could you please tell us about your bid in 5-10 lines. What are your bid's strength, what are the weaknesses? 20:13:09 Strong - we have quite a lot of high tech comanies, which might suit for sponsors. A few big ones are Open Source companies 20:13:33 Our proposal is for DebConf20 to take place in Instituto Superior 20:13:33 Técnico, Lisbon because: 20:14:12 * Lisbon is the most affordable European capital 20:14:12 * The organizing team has experience in the organization of 20:14:12 international events and has attended previous DebConf. 20:14:12 * Main members of local team work in the IT Department of venue. 20:14:12 * Good working spaces and alternatives inside campus. 20:14:12 * The campus is connected to the national Internet Exchange by a 20:14:12 low latency 10Gbit/s link. 20:14:14 * The campus offers wide network coverage with wired and WiFi connectivity. 20:14:14 * There is a wide variety of food options inside and around campus 20:14:16 including international gastronomy. 20:14:16 * There are many options in accommodations around the campus with 20:14:18 different levels of service and price. 20:14:18 * All rooms are equipped with a video projector and the main hall (300 20:14:20 seats) also has a sound system. 20:14:20 * Lisbon is served by an International airport with connections to all 20:14:22 continents. 20:14:22 * The venue is centrally located in Lisbon, 15 minutes away from 20:14:24 the airport by subway (10 stations away). 20:14:24 * Rooms are accessible as required by Portuguese Law. 20:15:08 What's your weak points? 20:16:57 Accommodation can be an issue because Lisbon is a very touristic place these days. However, there are plenty of hostels and hotels to meet any budget. 20:17:08 And also plenty of AirBNB. 20:18:33 There is no larger option (student accom, large hotel nearby) or so? 20:19:07 Yes, there are many hotels 3* and 4* near the venue. 20:19:32 ones that can do 200, 300 people? 20:19:43 could you expect to get room for, say, 140 persons in a single hotel around your planned dates? 20:20:17 We have 2 hotels of 3* very near. 20:20:33 let's give this 3 more mins and then move on to priority list evaluation 20:20:48 Near = across the street 20:20:50 calhariz: do you know how many rooms they have? 20:21:02 100 to 150 20:21:12 each? 20:21:20 yes 20:21:24 o.k., thank you 20:21:49 There are plenty of hotels 10+ minutes walking distance from the campus 20:22:05 The campus is located in the center of Lisbon in an area with plenty of hotels 20:23:16 should we do general questions before priority list? 20:23:39 sure 20:23:47 #topic Questions for the bids 20:24:01 For Lisbon: "Rooms are accessible as required by Portuguese Law." - I heared that the venue is really hilly, will an attendee in a wheelchair be able to travel between buildings used by DebConf without assistance? 20:25:15 The venue on the top of a hill. 20:25:39 They can easily move between the main building and the others. 20:26:05 For Lisbon: usually accommodation arrangements are dealt with by the debconf organization (except for people who prefer to handle their own accommodation). "plenty of hotels" kind-of assumes that attendees will have to pick their own hotel, which doesn't work well for e.g. accommodation sponsorship. How do you plan to handle accommodation for sponsored attendees? 20:26:07 the buildings at the top of the hill aren't at significantly different levels 20:26:19 For both teams: From DC17 a main theme was feedback regarding front desk problems. Most of the front desk problems stemmed from FD not having a dedicated closable space to work from. Do you have a good space for front desk to work from, somewhere easy to find from main entrance that can be locked up? 20:26:24 but the cafeteria is a little way down 20:26:45 let's start with lucas[DC]'s question 20:28:29 We will try to book in advance 2 hotels to accomodate the sponsored attendees. 20:29:21 do you already have specific hotels in mind? 20:29:54 If we are unable to book one of the Hotels across the street, we will most certainly be able to book an hotel at ~10 minutes walking distance from the campus. 20:30:33 Yes, AS Hotel and Hotel Dom Afonso Henriques 20:31:16 and get discount codes for attendees booking their own rooms 20:31:23 on to highvoltage's question 20:31:38 (Haifa) The Front Desk was allocated a room that can be locked. So I see no problem here. 20:32:09 We have been talking in getting lockable rooms for the organization. 20:32:17 tzafrir_laptop: is it the room that they can operate from, or a room elsewhere that can be locked? 20:32:45 highvoltage: the entire FD would be in a lockable room 20:33:00 tumbleweed: you're answering for lisbon or haifa there? 20:33:02 with more lockable rooms next door - as many as we want, really (and can afford) 20:33:10 highvoltage: haifa, sorry 20:33:18 Currently we allocated one room to Front Desk because this is what Nattie asked for. There are plenty of spare rooms near-by if needed. 20:33:32 In late july or august we won't have classes any more, therefore it should be fairly easy to have available lockable rooms 20:33:47 ok thanks, I suggest adding a note (and photo if possible) to the big pages as well 20:33:54 *bid 20:34:16 highvoltage: in the case of haifa, there's a spreadsheet in the team git, with proposed room allocations 20:34:52 highvoltage: See https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/20/Bids/Haifa/Rooms as well 20:35:09 Both teams: How close are we to knowing roughly what the venue will cost us? 20:35:54 Both teams: what do you wish you had from the other teams' bid? 20:36:28 The venue will be Paid by Instituto Superior 20:36:28 Técnico 20:36:42 so zero cost for us? 20:36:45 Haifa: rooms: none. We may need to pay for a security guard (overtime) and such. 20:37:59 OdyX[DC]: as mentioned: having it at a city center. We tried doing it ourselves, and the logistics were too complicated. 20:38:27 Maybe some costs for security, but should be residual. 20:39:12 For both teams: How many social spaces will there be? Will there be a quiet hacklab? A social space where people can talk loudly? Will the smokers have a space not too far away that's not basically a parking lot? Are there any curfues on drinking times or spaces where it won't be allowed? 20:40:33 For smoking, in the main building, there are two internal gardens that can be used 20:40:35 highvoltage: We will use some spare nearby rooms as hacklabs. Potentially also use the near-by library as a quiet hacklab. 20:41:30 2 Hacklabs at least, probably 3 or 4 during second week. 20:41:51 tzafrir_laptop: will hackers be alowed to eat/drink in the library? 20:42:22 highvoltage: There is a wide corridor between the two that host our rooms. People can sit there. Or go outside. Smoking is only possible outside. 20:42:49 for both teams (#2 from the prio list): Both of your teams are rather small. Do you think you can pull off DebConf20 with your current set of people? 20:42:51 Tamirski: ==^ 20:43:38 Hi 20:43:47 Hi Tamirski :) 20:43:49 I am considering inviting DDs and DMs from Portugal. 20:43:59 And local students. 20:44:06 We are pretty big team 20:44:13 And faculty. 20:44:49 Tamirski: well, they aim for 10+ people. 20:45:01 We will have all the administrative and tech support from our RBDlab and the CRI institute within the university 20:45:20 There are at keast 5 more person with us from the campus 20:45:34 great, be sure to add that to the bid page if it isn't there already 20:45:36 Anyway, we hope to add a few more people. There are a few people we had in mind to add to the team once we can secure the bid. 20:45:40 We have the support of IT department. 20:45:41 and we have 3-4 IT person as well 20:45:51 o.k., could you add them to the team on https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/20/Bids/Haifa and [/CheckList] 20:45:53 for all the time we need 20:46:04 because we need to know they know they are committed :) 20:46:15 No problem 20:46:15 and is very experienced in organizing other events on campus as a part of his day job 20:47:26 I'm also willing to put resources from my company to help (that's one more person). She just organized August Penguin conference (130 attendees if I remember). 20:49:01 nice, thank you 20:49:16 Another one for both teams: 20:49:49 You know we value diversity at Debian and are bad at it. You don't seem to have women on your teams. Why not? Would you have women from the local community be interested in helping with organizing your DebConf? 20:50:30 * highvoltage notes that we don't have any women on the debconf committee either 20:51:09 that is part of the "bad at it" piece :/ 20:51:12 We have two women on our team. Rita and Ana. 20:51:41 @kaplan's company resource is women 20:51:48 ah, yeah, that's a todo for you Lisbon: 20:52:05 please make the team lists on https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/20/Bids/Lisbon and https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/20/Bids/Lisbon/CheckList macth 20:52:17 OK 20:52:17 For both teams: There were lots of concern at DC18 about kids playing around and not being sufficiently supervised by adults, do you have any plans for kids who might be coming along? Will there be any form of childcare and a safe space for them during DebConf? 20:53:31 There are a Kindgarden inside the venue, and others near the venue. 20:53:44 highvoltage: probably just hire someone and make a playground for the time of the talks, like in Taiwan 20:54:14 calhariz: is it open during semester breaks? 20:54:17 ok, I might have missed it when looking at the bid pages, so if it's not there, please try to add that information too 20:54:54 Maybe it can be closed in August. 20:55:09 It's on the checklist with plenty of vague TBDs 20:55:35 A question for the Haifa bid: what leverage could your team have over Visa problems for attendees from countries reuqiring a visa to enter Israel? 20:55:51 And the benefit of it's being a university campus and not in the middle of the city - more safe for kids (although they still need supervision) 20:56:23 OdyX[DC]: well, contacts with the Ministry of Foriegn(sp?) afailars 20:56:55 They helped for the wikimedia conference. Last one was a month ago. 20:57:15 it looks like haifa might be the debconf that might require the least amount of visas looking on the list of countries that need to apply from the bid page 20:57:19 They had people from Egypt and Indonesia who got visas. 20:57:20 are you aware of attendees barred from attending due to visa problems? 20:57:22 Apart from Wikimania there was a Wikimedia hackathon in Jerusalem in 2016 and a GLAM conference in Tel-Aviv in 2018, so the local Wikimedia branch has experince with those 20:57:27 : we have department dealing with the visa issues in the campus I talked with them 2 days ago they will help 20:57:52 and we can provide letters from the CRI head as well we do it whenever needed 20:58:15 Perfect (I wasn't aware of this (: ) 20:58:36 Kaplan : (: 20:59:19 For Lisbon: How much cheese / food / alcohol is a traveler allowed to bring into the country? 20:59:31 from europe, I'd guess unlimited cheese:P 21:00:15 even if that's the case, please state it on the bid page 21:00:24 what about the rest of the world? 21:00:35 It shouldn't be allowed to bring any, since Portugal has a wide range of cheeses from many regions of the country and is a renowed producer of wine 21:00:52 :) 21:01:03 I think you meant s/allowed/necessary/g 21:01:07 for the sake of the exercise (I genuinely don't know if that's a realistic case, nor can I pretend to know or understand the Israeli-Palestine geo-political situation well enough); How realistic would attendance by a resident of Palestine/West Bank be? 21:01:19 I think it shouldn't be a problem in PT, maybe at the departure airport 21:02:21 (for the cheese & wine, my last comment) 21:03:13 OdyX[DC]: it may take some pre-arrangements, but other than that: realistic (for the West Bank) 21:03:24 @OdyX[DC] It's possible. Some of the students in the university are from such locations. Many just need a security check but not a permit (most of the west bank). It's someone from Palestinian authority cities - they need a permit. 21:04:01 OdyX[DC]: Yep there are people who commute daily to work in Israel 21:05:11 I assume Gaza Strip is simultaneously a tougher question as well as much more unlikely, right? 21:05:23 Right. 21:06:37 (I am not trying to corner you, I'm aware it's a complicated and sensitive topic. I feel these questions will get asked if the DebConf Committee doesn't ask them) 21:07:00 I wouldn't count on them to attend. Although a few Israeli high tech companies employ them remotely. 21:07:44 I would hope to have FOSS member from Jordan to attend... 21:08:28 And don't be shy with the questions, we prefer the direct approach. 21:08:28 I hear that it's not straightforward, but possible for most "usual cases"; thanks. 21:09:50 I think another good reason is the location (flight wise) we would be good for both east and west. Similar travel time from the US and Japan. 21:11:13 how long is the train ride from TLV to Haifa? 21:11:27 How long from the train station in Haifa to the venue? 21:11:28 1 hour... maybe few minutes more. 21:11:50 Both bids: What part of your bid do you think will be more complex or expensive than the average DebConf? 21:11:53 From train to the venue is about 30 min by bus 21:12:04 kaplan: Please add to https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/20/Bids/Haifa/#Getting_There . Thanks. 21:12:12 Q to both teams: how well is english spoken in the streets/local restaurants ? 21:12:21 DLange[DC]:kaplan: actually nowadays its less than an hour 21:12:43 Accommodation 21:13:12 OdyX[DC]: Haifa: well spoken by all the service industry, and good enough by the majority of population. 21:13:30 OdyX - English is very common in Israel. Almost everyone has basic+ knowledge, with most having good knowledge. 21:13:34 Same in Lisbon 21:14:09 Train stations , street signs and roads have signs in English as well. 21:15:05 is there a way to get OpenStreetmap with english names? :-) 21:15:09 tumbleweed: not sure right now 21:15:43 OdyX[DC]: Wikipedia seem to be working on that for their maps 21:17:19 OdyX[DC]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=haifa#map=13/32.7994/34.9933&layers=C 21:17:52 lovely :-) 21:18:00 (doesn't help for street names where these are not in the database in anything but native coding yet though) 21:18:22 OdyX[DC]: see e.g. map in https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Haifa 21:19:21 both teams: how safe are the areas where attendees are likely to go? during the day/night? for women? for people of unusual appareance? 21:19:43 (including non-violent harassment in the "non safe" part) 21:21:18 valhalla_: The campus itself should be very safe (including the dorms, I guess). I figure that the city is basically safe (Tamirski / georgetski?) 21:21:24 Any more questions coming? Otherwise I plan to move on after valhalla_'s question 21:22:04 valhalla_: I would define it as very safe, was walking about in Haifa at 4am, never had problems(I am a male) 21:22:35 Lisbon is a very safe city. There shouldn't be any problems. 21:22:37 my girlfriend confirms that she would describe Haifa as very safe 21:23:09 DLange - getting there part of the bid updated. 21:23:11 valhalla: the campus is safe and the city is safe 21:23:29 calhariz: except pickpocketing for Lisbon, that is a issue in the city (I've been there a few weeks and seen many). 21:24:35 In the more touristy areas you can have pickpocketing, but only in such places. No violent assaults. 21:25:10 I just accept that pickpocketing is a problem in any tourist area of any major city 21:25:26 yeah, and it applies to everybody (men, women, etc) 21:25:47 OK, seems like that was our last question 21:26:02 #topic Haifa conclusion 21:26:07 Haifa team, do you feel able to host DebConf20 in your city? 21:26:08 If you were not winning for DC20, would you be willing to run for DC21? 21:27:17 yes 21:27:19 * gwolf sits down and waves "hi!" ;-) Backlog.... Interesting backlog... 21:27:24 From what Tzafrir has planned so far - it look we can have a suceesful conference here. 21:28:01 tumbleweed:sure! 21:28:12 yes we can 21:28:25 I wanted to say we can't apply for DC21, but that's because I think of us as Europe, not Asia (: 21:28:52 oops :P 21:29:26 As in the European Union as Switzerland (and UK) I guess :-) 21:29:37 we're at the mercy of the bids we receive. We only get to select between the options we get 21:29:58 * gwolf would add (sorry for lateness!) as a good point in Israel, that most of the population have a decent grasp of English 21:30:45 and, same questions coming for Lisbon 21:30:49 #topic Lisbon conclusion 21:30:53 Lisbon team, do you feel able to host DebConf20 in your city? 21:30:54 If you were not winning for DC20, would you be willing to run for DC21? 21:31:17 Yes, we can host DebConf20. 21:31:49 We have to talk between ourselves for DC21. 21:32:57 OK 21:33:07 #topic Wrap-Up 21:33:57 oh, sorry, I had a question I was supposed to ask 21:34:28 do it, you have the meetbot power :) 21:34:36 #topic More Questions 21:34:50 Both Teams: Have you made contact with on-campus experts in accessibility yet? 21:35:07 e.g. the student organisations that have some experience with on-campus accessibility 21:35:19 tumbleweed: Tamirski has 21:35:36 Yes sure we are good 21:35:59 I have contacted NAPE (Students assisting Students) and still waiting for a reply. 21:36:06 Both teams: What amount of money do you expect to raise from _local_ sponsors (region, country)? 21:36:12 I got great answers Nattie will be happy (: 21:36:48 Both Teams: if our accessibility plans involve any outside help, will it be available on weekends? This is something we forgot to check in Cape Town 21:37:30 Please explain more 21:38:17 the way to get between the dorms and the venue was via ashuttle. But it only operated on weekdays 21:38:33 (for people in wheelchairs) 21:39:16 The local bus company can help. 21:39:35 In Haifa you can arrive from the room at the dorms to the other side of the campus with wheelchair no problems with that as I informed 21:39:39 OdyX[DC]: I don't have any estimate of that. There are quite a few candidates (the companies we work for, to name a few), but we figured we'd only start this after we have a bid 21:40:08 Both teams: do you think that, in a few days, you would be able to provide a rough budget, or better estimates for the main costs for at least one specific scenario in terms of total attendees/sponsored attendees? I must admit that the unclear accommodation situation for Lisbon worries me a bit. 21:40:38 There specialized bus, and the trains stations have ramps. 21:42:01 For sponsors - my personal challenge is getting both SUSE and REDHAT to sponsor the event. 21:42:21 We have some rough numbers. I think we can do that. 21:42:25 whoo, that'd be quite a badge :-) 21:42:36 (that: costs. Not referring to RH and SUSE) 21:42:44 (: 21:43:05 Maybe IBM will want to do a combined thing for IBM/RedHat 21:43:32 IBM has a development center right next to the university. 21:43:39 calhariz: can you take a task for our evaluation to get us a figure from each of the hotels for 100 and 150 rooms booked each? 21:43:54 (you'd have to complete that by end of next week) 21:43:58 Yes. 21:44:02 thank oyu 21:44:04 you, too 21:45:18 OK, i tlooks like things are quieting down again 21:45:26 let's wrap up, within 2 hours 21:45:34 #topic Wrap-Up 21:45:41 Thank you very much for attending the meeting. 21:45:41 Please complete the tasks that we have identified during the meeting within the next week. 21:45:44 If you have any questions, please reach out to the team here in #debconf-team, on the mailing lists or by approaching individual members of the DebConf committee or team members you have met at DebConfs before. 21:46:03 Thanks to both teams for bidding, it's great to have yet another year with more than one strong bid, your contributions to the overall good health of DebConf is very much appreciated! 21:46:09 have we set a time for the next meeting? 21:46:39 nope, we'll communicate a result in Feb 21:46:41 Influencing me with wine bottles' delivery doesn't work, but thanks to [redacted] who tried. :-P 21:47:28 Seriously though; we know what it takes to pull off a bid, it's a lot of work, in an ocean of uncertainties. 21:47:36 Thanks for putting in the work 21:47:37 next normal team meeting is 2019-01-21 21:47:56 And this is just the beginning. A lot of work has to happen for the bid. But a lot more, to pull off the DebConf 21:48:09 Thanks, everyone! 21:48:16 yeah that's for sure :) 21:48:37 #endmeeting