18:33:56 #startmeeting 18:33:56 Meeting started Wed Jun 1 18:33:56 2016 UTC. The chair is tumbleweed. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:33:56 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:34:03 role call? :D 18:34:04 *\o/* 18:34:08 nattie did ask us to stall a bit, but we can cover unrelated things 18:34:09 such as that 18:34:14 o 18:34:25 Agenda: 18:34:26 http://deb.li/DC16meet1 18:34:27 * olasd rolls 18:34:28 \i/ 18:34:34 oi 18:35:10 I guess we don't have an nkukard-traveling, so we can't start with his bit 18:35:15 o/ 18:35:30 Hi 18:36:06 let's start with sponsors, that's not a nattie area 18:36:09 #topic sponsors 18:36:35 Does anyobody know who is on the fulfillment@dc.o alias? 18:37:04 I just need to get on to that alias please. Ganneff ? 18:37:15 and presumably tamo too? 18:37:16 o/ 18:37:24 there were queries there about banners, which is very much her world 18:37:39 tumbleweed: never heard of the alias before 18:37:48 If we want Ganneff to add people to an alias, we should probably #action it 18:37:51 we used in from DC15 18:37:59 (yes, it's the first time I hear about the alias as well) 18:38:02 tumbleweed: is that to get me signed up? 18:38:10 this is for the sponors 18:38:16 DLange: is there any reason it can't just forward to debconf-team? 18:38:23 * nattie arrives 18:38:30 DLange: or, debconf-sponsors? 18:38:33 yes, too many people on -team, wendar 18:38:34 DLange: what was the alias used for? sponsor swaggy stuff? 18:38:56 sponsor fulfillment of their perks etc. 18:39:01 * larjona afk and multitasking, will try to catch up 18:39:01 DLange: trying to avoid emails going to dead aliases that no one uses 18:39:15 -sponsors would make sense 18:39:22 DLange: then -sponsors 18:39:35 fine for me as long as it's not -team :) 18:39:44 Even not mentioning fulfillment@ would make sense. Why bother sponsors with extra aliases to learn, with no clarity on when to use each? 18:39:47 the argument I heard was to remove too much traffic from -sponsors 18:39:56 hmh 18:39:59 ok, that's fine then 18:40:03 indiebio_: the traffic on sponsors is light, not really necessary 18:40:06 sponsors@ is RT though 18:40:15 DLange: yes, intentionally 18:40:24 may be 10 yrs ago :) 18:40:27 DLange: but debconf-sponsors exists as an alias, am I mistaken? 18:40:50 yes, debconf-sponsors is a regular list, no RT 18:41:02 sponsors goes to RT and debconf-sponsors 18:41:19 so, fufillment can go to just debconf-sponsors, and not RT 18:41:30 sounds good 18:41:47 ok, let's move on 18:41:53 can I action someone to sort this out? 18:42:29 (how calm has this channel become since tumbleweed asked for volunteers...) 18:42:34 (am I volunteering?) 18:42:40 tumbleweed: what do you need? 18:42:41 (maybe?) 18:42:41 take me 18:42:53 I'm on all the aliases :) 18:42:58 tumbleweed: just someone to make sure Ganneff adds debconf-team to fulfillment? 18:43:01 #action DLange to get fulfillment@ to alias to debconf-sponsors and/or be deleted 18:43:10 +1 18:43:19 #topic logos on the website 18:43:34 I assume adding sponsors stalled because superfly had to take a break 18:43:49 is there a backlog here that someone should be picking up? 18:44:02 or are the pending sponsors not at the right point yet (I have no idea how this all works) 18:44:03 this is mine, I think I didn't see ZSD on the website (supporter level?), so, 1. I need to check, I do think they do get on the website at that level 18:44:27 and 2., superfly has had family troubles, and I wasn't sure if there was a backlog or not, as I am also behind 18:44:36 tumbleweed: I haven't cross-checked the current sponsors and website logos 18:44:58 ok, indiebio_ you'll look into it? 18:44:59 ZSD and takealot are missing 18:45:01 cumulus and plathome have confirmed as bronze and could go up 18:45:08 q 18:45:09 oops 18:45:14 so the brochure says supporter does go to the website, but the website does not have that category 18:45:26 guess we should add it then 18:45:27 indiebio_: the sponsors page has 18:45:29 irc'ing with less, azeem_ ? :) 18:45:52 indiebio_: ok it doesn't :) 18:45:54 azeem_: https://debconf16.debconf.org/sponsors/? I don't see it 18:46:01 indiebio_: ZSD are only "contacted" in the database 18:46:26 yeah, zsd hasn't updated the git 18:46:29 indiebio_: we don't have any confirmed supporters in the database 18:46:39 this is NB for me as I hope to go talk to people in person in the next weeks to get Open Weekend support. If they sponsor I expect them to be in the supporter category 18:46:40 indiebio_: so, that's why no category for it 18:47:03 ok, so there are other sponsors who aren't up, but they aren't one of them 18:47:10 azeem_: can you follow up with me on this after the meeting? 18:47:14 ah, sorry wendar, I've not been up to date. I did email DLange for Zsd, and they did pay their invoice, can we update them, please? 18:47:15 yes 18:47:34 I'm not on the machine that has my git 18:47:35 back to the top of the agenda 18:47:46 #topic swag 18:47:52 #topic swag - t-shirts 18:47:54 that's better 18:48:02 once a jolly swagman passed by a billabong... 18:48:12 DLange: can you enter your activity for ZSD in the sponsors-list? I don't know dates or details. 18:48:19 https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/debconf-data/dc16.git/plain/swag/tshirts-hoodies.pdf 18:48:44 #action indiebio to update her git and check zsd and takealot is on website 18:48:48 tamo: What do we need to talk about, here? 18:48:53 tumbleweed: I guess the plastic cotton combo is out, :) not many happy with that 18:49:05 yeah, and I'm with that camp :) 18:49:08 03Michael Banck 05master edf06bd 06debconf-team/logos 03plathome/plathome_logo-tagline.png Add Plat'Home logo 18:49:24 tamo: the thought is nice, but breathability is a thing 18:49:34 tumbleweed: me too actually :) but it is surprisingly soft and very breathable 18:49:35 i like the hemp/cotton idea 18:50:07 tamo: even after wearing it for a full day? 18:50:08 Yes, but hemp+organic is R215, while plain cotton is R180 18:50:20 nattie: hemo/cotton is lovely and soft a bit more pricey though 18:50:23 (I find it strange that plastic is more expensive than plain cotton) 18:50:29 #action azeem, indiebio follow up "cumulus and plathome have confirmed as bronze and could go up" 18:50:53 oh, other prices for other designs... But a similar ratio 18:51:41 gwolf: It is a mixture of the palstic Bottles and Cotton, I think becuase of the process it goes through 18:52:13 Right... But I expected the process to be much cheaper, as it recycles waste :) Anyway... I'm even more sided to the cotton. 18:52:38 all T's are dyed to our colour choices and well as branded. The branding will ne printed on, so it last longer than a silkscreen 18:52:43 (and now that I see the proposed designs, I'm changing some opinions, siding towards page 2, baseball semi-long shirts) 18:52:47 so, we budgeted R200 (VAT inclusive) per shirt 18:53:10 tumbleweed: R250 18:53:21 gwolf: where are the actual designs? 18:53:29 tumbleweed: yup a guess with VAT it is R250 18:53:42 tamo: I see R200 in the budget 18:53:53 Mithrandir: https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/debconf-data/dc16.git/plain/swag/tshirts-hoodies.pdf 18:54:03 How much is .za VAT? 18:54:05 tumbleweed: Nope... 18:54:10 gwolf: 14% 18:54:15 tumbleweed: let me check 18:54:18 https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/debconf-data/dc16.git/tree/budget/budget.ledger#n227 18:54:28 estimating 350 shirts at R200 each 18:55:13 tumbleweed: R70 000/by 250 = R280 per shirt 18:55:36 250 doesn't leave any margin 18:55:36 So design #1 would be 193.79, #2 would be 205.20, design #3 319.20 (on cotton, cheapest option) 18:55:41 we need more than 250 shirts 18:55:48 tumbleweed: oh ok if you are making it 300, that ws not the number I was working with 18:55:51 R200 is very expensive 18:55:56 tumbleweed: Yes. Staff and video add up. 18:55:57 tamo: the number I'm looking at is 350 18:56:02 tumbleweed: cool then elminates the Hoodies straight away 18:56:10 you need a margin over 250, and video and orga shirts 18:56:29 that's 11.50 EUR 18:56:32 tumbleweed: that is included in the numbers for Video and Orga? 18:57:04 tumbleweed: they are separate are they? 18:57:09 tamo: I'm guessing so, that refers me to http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20151108.205836.462cef3a.en.html 18:57:12 yes, they are 18:57:27 tumbleweed: ?? ok so what is the real budget then? 18:57:52 err no shirt numbers in that thread 18:57:59 tamo: I mean, that's what's been budget 18:58:00 ed 18:58:53 tumbleweed: ok, a little confused I thought 250units, with Video and Orga included in that number, or do the Video and Orga get 2 T's 18:59:00 yes 18:59:03 or more 18:59:12 tamo: we accumulate all the shirts 18:59:23 and we are expecting 250 attendees 18:59:25 everybody gets one attendee shirt and one of their group where they belong to (if any) 18:59:27 and you need more attendee ones than the expected number 18:59:30 so 250 shorts isn't nearly enough, never mind orga or video 18:59:34 shirts :P 18:59:43 * nattie agrees with moray there 18:59:50 tumbleweed: yes but then the budget doesn't cover it 19:00:00 tamo: then we need to fix that 19:00:02 besides, we have to send shirts to sponsors and whatnot 19:00:06 but this was budgeted months ago 19:00:11 yes, another 30 or whatever for sponsors 19:00:23 gwolf: good to remember that point 19:00:38 tumbleweed: So we need to amend the budget to cover it 19:00:42 tamo: Your shirts are too expensive. The DC15 ones where ~7€. 19:00:46 tumbleweed: to get a T that is less than R160/R180, custom made with sizes s-5xl, printed with branding is impossible 19:00:55 tumbleweed: well, probably at that point the expected number was higher, so it seems like it's the unit price that has increased 19:01:05 where the constraint about shirts to sponsor is written? (sponsor brochure?) 19:01:21 mehdi: it's customary 19:01:26 yup, that's closest to the most expensive T-shirts we have had... but I think we are too late to source remotely 19:01:28 DLange: you can't get a cheaper price than that 19:01:29 moray_: I think nobody actually looked into that budget line 19:01:30 nowhere. It's just cu.. what nattie says 19:01:33 our budget review has been very cursary 19:01:48 nattie: so we don't _have_ to :-) it is just nice to do so. 19:01:54 tamo: again, the DC15 one which you have at home was 40% cheaper 19:02:06 it's good diplomacy, i think 19:02:08 DLange: remember they are custom made and they don't normally make up to 5xl 19:02:08 and made in europe? :) 19:02:25 mehdi: it's on the sponsor brochure actually (silver+) 19:02:29 tamo: custom made is not a requirement, is it? 19:02:31 tamo: not clear why we need custom made for everyone 19:02:44 And... Well, the largest shirts I've ever used (and I was *quite a bit* bigger than today, which is already saying something) were 2XL 19:02:53 olasd: right, makes sense then (if it is promised) 19:02:55 DLange: yes it is, becuase we need all sizes to cover everyone 19:02:59 ...Do we really need 5XL? Or... What are Southafrican sizes like? 19:03:00 gwolf: some people are tall as well as wide 19:03:07 gwolf: 2XL vs. 5XL is meaningless without knowing measurements 19:03:10 think "normannischer kleiderschrank" 19:03:11 nattie: count me in 19:03:13 gwolf: (so is S vs. L) 19:03:27 gwolf: one smaller than US, generally 19:03:27 gwolf: YES that was a big requirement at last years conference 19:03:29 moray_: Right, that's my question :) What does 5XL mean in centimeters, so we can compare.. 19:03:31 yes, I was hoping we'd have a sizing chart for regitrations to refer to 19:03:31 tamo: we got XS-5XL in Germany from normal suppliers. The same should be possible in ZA. 19:03:36 Weren't the DC15 shirts even fair wear shirts by stanley and stella? 19:03:41 check Fruit of the Loom for example 19:03:44 DLange: this is nor Germany 19:03:48 juliank: yes 19:03:53 *not 19:04:15 so we should basically match the sizes we had in .de? 19:04:18 juliank: unless 4XL and 5XL, these needes to be a non-fair-trade supplier (but still eco cotton etc.) 19:04:32 let's stop piling on, and actually get to the bottom of what we need her 19:04:39 highvoltage: "one size smaller" is ambiguous for which direction you mean (size to choose vs. size a label represents) 19:04:40 nattie: no, because people said they couldn't get a T-shirt in their size 19:04:41 tamo: do we need the shirts to be custom made for normal size ranges? 19:05:06 tamo: can you tell me more about that later please? 19:05:19 what does "custom made" mean here, apart from pricier? They're not talking about tailored for each person. :-P 19:05:32 because we went out of our way to get a large size range 19:05:40 tumbleweed: no then you order any colour you want, it will still cost you R70- R80 per Shirt and the rest for printing. Trust me I have done my homework 19:06:08 moray_: if you took 10 random XL T-shirts in South Africa, they would be on average, about the same size as 10 L t-shirts in the US 19:06:08 tamo: so, 350*170*1.14 = 67830 19:06:11 that fits in the budget 19:06:29 tumbleweed: the reason why we are discussing this now, is becuase I ahve been through a number od suppliers to get a decent price 19:07:08 if they're being made, we can call the sizes whatever we want really 19:07:11 tumbleweed: waht does that mean? 19:07:35 tamo: so, 350*170*1.14 = 67830 19:07:38 tamo: I'm saying 350 shirts, at R170 (ex VAT) each is R68k, which is under R70k 19:07:39 tamo: 350 shirts at 170 rand plus vat 19:07:58 tumbleweed: perfect I can negotiate that 19:08:08 tumbleweed: inc vat surely? 19:08:17 tumbleweed: we need to add VAT onto that too 19:08:20 nattie: the PDF says ex 19:08:35 tumbleweed: what is it with VAT 19:08:35 tumbleweed: i meant you were adding vat to arrive at the final figure 19:08:44 nattie: yes 19:09:01 if DLange is OK with expensive shirts, the shirts you've found fit 19:09:02 i think we may be verbosely agreeing but talking aroudn each other 19:09:19 nattie: probably necessary since we're unlikely to claim any VAT back 19:09:30 tumbleweed: with VAT it is R193ish 19:09:31 (as assumed at one point) 19:09:46 tamo: that should be fine 19:09:50 assuming 350 shirts is enough 19:09:53 it seems proably enough? 19:09:56 *nods* better to estimate with vat 19:10:04 nattie: we have to 19:10:06 tumbleweed: Ok I can amke taht work, then we go for normal Cotton 19:10:20 tumbleweed: sorry typing fast 19:10:28 tumbleweed: yes. always better to make a pessimistic assumption 19:10:30 #agreed cotton shirts are the only option that fit the budget 19:10:38 nattie: no, seriously, we aren't going to get any VAT back 19:10:43 see the agenda 19:10:46 tumbleweed: I think we're too late to discuss this still. I think they are pricey but we need to order this week or we'll have no shirts at all. 19:10:49 tumbleweed: i know 19:10:57 tumbleweed: long sleeve or short, some say long aothers short in emails I have seen. 19:11:00 i meant as a gneral principe 19:11:21 I think everyone prefers short 19:11:26 it's the norm 19:11:34 even if it is winter :P 19:11:42 tumbleweed: I am trying to swing it without VAT but most have to pay it 19:11:48 short, yes 19:11:58 350 may be a bit too little, but if we do more we can plan to sell the surplus 19:12:01 to not increasing the net budget 19:12:15 yeah, and there was a little headroom there anyway 19:12:29 tumbleweed: Perfect R193ish with Vat included, 3 colours and T's 19:12:32 do we do kids sizes too this year? 19:12:35 tumbleweed: short sleeve 19:12:39 DLange: we're aiming to 19:12:40 oh my we're still on item 1.1 19:12:45 DLange: nattie was asking taht 19:12:53 DLange: but those will be for sale i think 19:12:53 highvoltage: we did some of the bottom ones before this one though 19:13:10 yeah, we need to move on 19:13:13 DLange: with the swag items, we can see if we can get some cash from there 19:13:20 tamo: the target is 170 ZAR _incl. VAT 19:13:22 if we want to do some hoodies for sale we must decide how much 19:13:36 how many too :) 19:13:41 that 19:13:44 DLange: not possible sorry, I can still work on R170 19:13:51 hoodies for sale can be commissioned later on though? 19:14:06 nattie: nope we need to do them with the T's 19:14:09 DLange: tamo: I don't know what you two are talking about 19:14:10 ok 19:14:22 zippy or non zippy? 19:14:23 oh, shirt prices still 19:14:33 DLange: where did you get 170 icnlusive from? 19:14:34 tumbleweed: tamo is on R170+VAT and that's over budget 19:14:43 i would prefer a zippy hoodie 19:14:44 tumbleweed: from your calculation 19:14:51 nattie: yes, me too. 19:14:55 we do everything gross now as we can't offset VAT 19:14:58 DLange: no, it works out to be R193 19:14:59 (if I'm getting one at all) 19:14:59 DLange: that calculation was ex not inclusive 19:15:07 and not purple, but that's my own bias 19:15:09 err other way around 19:15:11 Iclusing Vat 19:15:18 Including VAT 19:15:39 hard to tell how many people would buy hoodies, depends a lot on price and final quality 19:15:42 DLange: see the *1.14? 19:15:53 tumbleweed: ack, sorry 19:16:00 DLange: people in SA have businesses and they ahve to have a VAT number and pay VAT. 19:16:05 nattie: we could probably buy a hoodie in the shop and get it embroidered. I should find out if that could work. Then we just hack it during DebCamp/DebConf 19:16:10 tamo: we can stop talking about VAT now :) 19:16:19 tumbleweed: YES PLEASE :) 19:16:26 Ok hoodies 19:16:45 tumbleweed: How many, what colours? 19:16:48 we've already 3/4 of the way through the meeting hour, and we're on agenda item 1 19:16:58 I don't know if we can make a useful hoodie decision here and now 19:17:03 we could get the printing on the back of the hoodies that goes on the front of the tshirts 19:17:06 (sounds like we are discussing... bikeshed colors? ;-) ) 19:17:11 it's what i did when i organised show stash recently 19:17:27 we should try to avoid having a pile of hoodies left over, though 19:17:33 we can price them, put up a web page of people to pre-order and then order them for delivery at the beginning of DebConf 19:17:39 how long do they take to produce? 19:17:47 (whereas for t-shirts the unit price is lower and we need a large quantity anyway) 19:17:48 tumbleweed: ok no problem taht we can confirm by nex week 19:17:52 DLange: yeah, I'd be tempted to do something like that. People are really lazy, of course 19:18:09 that was done before for jackets 19:18:10 # indiebio to check with her sewing shop what the deal is with impromptu logo embroidery 19:18:17 (though with the jackets the sizing then turned out to be wrong...) 19:18:18 moray_: the nicaraguan raincoats? 19:18:21 yeah 19:18:25 #action indiebio to check with her sewing shop what the deal is with impromptu logo embroidery 19:18:36 lol, thanks tumbleweed 19:18:37 #action decide on a hoodie plan 19:18:45 #topic bags 19:18:54 so i like option 4a for bags 19:18:59 if that's the least-purple one 19:19:04 with the mustard flap 19:19:25 nattie: my choice is 4b :) 19:19:53 the proposed ones looked nice, though previously when not in budget surplus we did simple canvas bags 19:20:01 tamo: those have budgetry problems too 19:20:22 we ahve bugeted R68,500 19:20:25 ah, but not 350 19:20:26 tumbleweed: why we are working on 250 19:20:29 my thumbsucks don't work 19:20:58 tamo: are those prices VAT-inclusive? 19:21:06 tumbleweed: people aren't getting 2 bags are they? 19:21:17 Yes including VAT 19:21:19 tamo: I'm agreeing with you that I made a mistake 19:21:38 yes, that comes to R62500 which is fine 19:21:41 tumbleweed: ah I see, ok great, my heart skipped a beat there 19:22:27 tumbleweed: Yup they are under budget :) 19:22:45 * gwolf disappears, as almost-always, mid-meeting 19:22:52 o/ 19:22:58 o/ 19:23:09 I'm wondering if we need bags this year, if we shouldn't go for simple canvas bags (like the shopping bags). especially if we're in the red, budget wise, overall 19:23:10 \o 19:23:11 ciao gunnarrrrrrrrrr 19:23:20 tumbleweed: My suggestion with colours is maybe, do some different ones, ie: Plain, Multi coloured etc 19:23:42 we need bags (sponsor perk) but what type they are is not committed anywhere 19:23:42 that's something we can thnk about outside the meeting though 19:23:49 indiebio_: sounds like a good idea to have the option available if needed for a worst case 19:23:50 all the options look good 19:23:54 Bags are always nice... but they are not IMO a must-have. Before DC12, we basically never had fancy bags. 19:23:55 indiebio_: I think we promised bags towards sponsors, but yes, before we cut costs by doing shopping bag type ones (canvas/cotton/whatever) 19:24:05 anyway, I said I'm away, so away I go 19:24:06 our budget also isn't under crazy pressure 19:24:07 o/ 19:24:18 just unexpected expenses starting to appear 19:24:23 but also some late sponsors 19:24:24 just a thought. I don't have a strong opinion either way 19:24:29 IME sponsors care much more about shirts than bags 19:24:30 tumbleweed: these bags are Laptop bags, good quality and a decent price 19:24:43 after the swag is thrown out, anyway 19:24:44 yeah, getting nice swag from a conference is rare 19:25:03 I see no reason to ditch the bags 19:25:11 unless we replaced them with hoodies :P 19:25:14 when do we need to order the bags? 19:25:17 tumbleweed: I ahve swag prices too, and we don't need all teh swag. We have up to R600 budget for swag 19:25:24 I'm carrying my DC15 bag almost daily though 19:25:28 DC16 - never 19:25:37 DLange: as soon as 19:25:38 right, some I never use 19:25:48 tamo: and the real deadline is? :) 19:25:54 and from non-DebConf conferences I normally throw away (or equivalent) the conference bag 19:25:57 DLange: tomorrow 19:26:01 DLange: is there a reason to delay? 19:26:12 not anymore 19:26:25 azeem: you should see my DC16 bag, it's almost worn through :) different strokes 19:26:32 DLange: so we get them by DebCamp 19:26:41 So I'd say go for the bags. 19:26:51 indiebio_: that'd be dc15 19:26:54 indiebio_: time travel is real! 19:26:55 +1 go for them 19:26:56 they're great 19:27:00 I like the 2nd liner 19:27:09 4b is also a nice outside, but really all of them are fine 19:27:10 Bags are great and a keep sake if made well, the price is very reasonable 19:27:11 yes, the 2nd liner is much better 19:27:22 lol, oh man. sleep deprivation beats any drug out there 19:27:28 * olasd patpats indiebio_ 19:27:31 I'm assuming they're sized for standard Debian 12" Thinkpads? :p 19:27:39 tumbleweed: perfect yes 2nd liner is awesome, comes in different prints 19:27:48 We should also think about whether we want to send sponsors' stuff again. It was an awefull mess at DC15 so we either organize this well this year or ditch it completely. 19:27:53 moray_: actually 15" 19:27:59 But not the last-minute mess of last year... 19:28:07 ok, we're drifting 19:28:12 (ok, too big to be likely for me to use then) 19:28:16 #action tamo to order bags. With teh 2nd liner 19:28:23 #topic statuses 19:28:25 tumbleweed: Ok so can I go on the T's and the bags? 19:28:26 catering 19:28:29 moray_: nattie can sew it smaller :) 19:28:59 tamo: we'll have to figure out sizing breakdown for you. Talk to nattie? 19:29:25 tumbleweed: thanks DLange did send me sizing, but I'll speak to both 19:29:44 grand 19:29:53 and video team will need to approve sizes for them 19:29:54 nattie: make sure the standard number inflation happens then 19:30:00 DLange: was that the breakdown or has it changed? 19:30:02 tumbleweed: doesn't really work that way 19:30:03 I can get you an update on the size chart but so can nattie. We use the same data source :) 19:30:14 tumbleweed: it's better just to do video team numbers scaled from the overall distribution 19:30:15