18:29:09 #startmeeting 18:29:09 Meeting started Wed Mar 23 18:29:09 2016 UTC. The chair is tumbleweed. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:29:09 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:29:10 o/ 18:29:19 agenda: http://deb.li/DCR16meet1 18:29:26 there's a lot on here 18:29:33 we're going to have to push fast, and come back to things later 18:29:37 o/ 18:29:39 >> The requested URL was not found on the server. If you entered the URL manually please check your spelling and try again. 18:29:42 typo 18:29:54 I copy-pasted from the pad 18:30:02 I'm guessing the R shouldn't be there 18:30:05 yup 18:30:14 http://deb.li/DC16meet1 18:30:58 OK 18:31:05 onwards with avengance 18:31:13 #topic Registration Status 18:31:31 * tumbleweed sshs in to answer that 18:32:21 81 unique registered people 18:32:22 new user profile page is nice! 18:32:27 I know, right :) 18:32:35 apparently we have typos, though :P (not on that page) 18:33:08 sponsored vs self paid, I can't answer right now, but I can calculate that after the meeting 18:33:13 onwards? 18:33:25 #topic CfP communication 18:33:28 should we do that today? 18:33:42 I was sick last weekend and was also somewhat stressed since I didn't have time to go through the registration process to check for content problems and add missing parts... but when I did eventually get to register, the process was actually pretty good, certainly on par with previous debconf registrations that I registered for 18:34:14 heh, faint praise ;) 18:34:19 aww, only on par 18:34:24 highvoltage drives a hard bargain 18:35:06 no ways it's only on par. it's sleeeeeek. 18:35:09 tumbleweed: why do we have 137 users on prod but "only" 81 registrations? (something to check for after the meeting. I just find the numbers deviate a bit much) 18:35:10 tumbleweed: I said "on par", but I meant "at it's worst parts, on par" :) 18:35:17 :) 18:35:46 pages need quite a bit of work before I'd consider it sleek 18:35:58 but I know it will get there too. 18:36:11 yep 18:36:15 So, CfP 18:36:16 sorry, way off topic 18:36:21 I hear no objections 18:36:26 #action tumbleweed to send CfP 18:36:38 #topic visa team status 18:36:49 ginggs: anyone contact you yet? 18:36:53 do you need more manpower? 18:36:58 personpower! 18:38:11 hvhaugwitz, azeem: ? 18:38:19 while we wait for ginggs to answer, it seems like https://debconf16.debconf.org/cfp is pretty much what needs to be distributed/advertised/promoted/etc? 18:38:49 also the register-with-sponsorship deadline 18:38:52 yep, I think that was copy-pastad from the titanpad 18:38:57 I feel like we have a bit scarce coverage on planet atm so maybe cfp is a good thing to blog about 18:39:16 larjona: you were going to blog about these on bits.d.o ? 18:40:07 we can come back to all of this 18:40:22 #topic Invoice status 18:40:40 nkukard: you wanted the budget to be updated before you'd sign off on it? 18:40:56 then we'll have to present the budget to the DPL for approval of payment 18:41:09 so now is also a good time to get any other budget changes landed 18:41:39 we need to get the invoice from UCT housing to SPI soonish, too, just sayin' 18:41:50 they won't pay without DPL signoff 18:42:11 but yes, all of this should happen in parallel 18:42:40 grr, it feels like we're a bit cricket-y today :( 18:43:12 i'm here. just don't have much to add. 18:43:17 DLange: are you willing to updatet he budget, and get the nivoice to SPI? 18:43:26 yes, will do 18:43:28 sorry I spontaneously started working on a DC16 blog entry during the meeting 18:43:46 #action dlange to update the budget and get the invoice to the SPI 18:43:59 sub-topic time 18:44:16 #topic accom registration procedure 18:44:26 see the agenda, we have some options on how we take payment 18:44:39 click and pledge is the historical approach, but means manual reconciliation 18:44:44 hi 18:44:47 can we offload that to UCT? 18:44:48 everyone's advice is stay well clear 18:44:56 DLange: yes, in a few different ways 18:44:58 did you get a reply on your email from them? 18:45:27 DLange: I didn't reply last week, and belinda said she'd be away this week 18:45:32 but I can reply after the meeting, to the preson she nominated 18:45:40 fil: hi! 18:45:45 hi all 18:46:09 hello, just got home, glad I made it! 18:46:25 tumbleweed: I'd be all for ... we give them a list and they invoice. They update that list with status as in {invoiced|paid} 18:46:31 hey ginggs, fil and dumbassman 18:46:39 DLange: ack 18:47:02 tumbleweed: however they can accept payments, they shall offer to the payees. We need not care that much. They can do CC so that should be fine for most. 18:47:04 DLange: the question is if we provide a link to VCS (VCS is like a south african click and pledge) 18:47:12 the rest we manage by exception :) 18:47:20 or they send a form, and people send it back with card details 18:47:35 what is the margin VCS takes? 18:47:59 http://website.vcs.co.za/customer-info/pricing/ 18:48:39 tumbleweed: I'd say go for it, looks ok on the rates 18:49:22 yeah, let's see what CMC say. I'm sure they'll want to cream some off, too 18:50:00 #action tumbleweed to ask CMC about VCS for paymnet 18:50:07 #topic status on catering booking 18:50:16 same thing, needs to be updated in the budget 18:50:41 tamo: did you submit the invoice to CMC, yet? 18:52:09 5 days idle 18:52:40 OK, I guess someone else must pick this up 18:53:01 dumbassman: ^ 18:53:41 I can't say, tamo would know... 18:53:51 can you ping her? 18:54:21 she needs to submit the totals per person to nkukard and the invoice to CMC please 18:54:24 will try SMS 18:54:29 thanky 18:54:32 Hi tumbleweed sorry just got in now 18:54:37 oh hi tamo 18:54:38 just in time :) 18:54:39 haha, nvm 18:55:02 tumbleweed: telepathy :) what are you needing to know? 18:55:13 topic is catering booking 18:55:16 18:51 < tumbleweed> same thing, needs to be updated in the budget 18:55:17 18:51 < tumbleweed> tamo: did you submit the invoice to CMC, yet? 18:56:03 tumbleweed: Hi no am i menat to give it to teh CMC? 18:56:30 tumbleweed: I just sent them to nkukard and the team 18:56:45 yes, please do 18:56:54 and we need to update nkukard's budget appropriately 18:57:07 tumbleweed: but did you read my email from Narusha the other day? It looks as though we have to get permission first 18:57:58 tamo: I didn't get any email from Neerasha since the 11th 18:59:23 tumbleweed: last week forwraded all the email from Belinda and Peter etc. Apparently Belinda is the only person we are allowed to deal with and Neerusha said taht she must find out if we can bring in caterers 18:59:51 oh, yes, found that e-mail 18:59:54 tumbleweed: so there seems to be some red tape, the rest all say it is fine but she seems a little difficult 19:00:07 Yeah, so she needs it to come from Belinda 19:00:14 tamo: UCT.... 19:00:23 we knew we were getting into red tape 19:00:27 but they are cheap 19:00:55 tumbleweed: yup it is a waiting game all are on leave at the mo but I will talk to Belinda's assistant 19:01:29 tamo: thanks 19:01:53 tumbleweed: they say we can bring in food in food packs for special requirements, I have a feeling she is just pulling rank etc but I personally can't see it being an issue 19:02:09 tumbleweed: they ahve had functions there before at Fuller Hall 19:02:15 yeah 19:03:02 we also need someone to handle the budget side, here 19:03:05 tumbleweed: so do I just send the invoice to them in the moment and then what happens from there? 19:03:18 tamo: then they'll invoice SPI 19:03:26 tumbleweed: okidoke 19:03:57 anyone want to get food prices into the budget? 19:04:06 tumbleweed, sorry, just got back now .... I don't mind getting values in some form I understand, or if someone wants to make a commit I don't mind, I'll then sign off on it once I've prodded all the team leads 19:04:31 nkukard: tamo did send you the invoices, didn't she? 19:04:57 can't we do a R300 budget per day and person and then book the invoices against that? 19:05:12 tumbleweed: yup for the booking of the caterers and all the other quotes 19:05:19 DLange: works for me, if that covers it 19:05:22 what DLange says :) , I'd like a max amount that I can shove in to cover any little things we may need possibly 19:05:40 debcamp = amount x persons x days, debconf = amount x persons x days :) 19:05:53 I've been meaning to sit down with a calculator (ipython) but haven't :) 19:06:15 I think thats the maximum amount of verbosity I actually need, if I can get that, I am 110% happy 19:06:18 #action budget food at R300 pp pd 19:06:29 same for accommodation (finals) 19:06:45 accommodation is easier, because we have no variation on cost 19:06:55 tumbleweed, its just setting a maximum 19:06:57 well, I guess people per nights... 19:06:58 yeah 19:07:10 our working maximum is still 250, I think 19:07:17 well we've booked 200 19:07:19 let's go with that 19:07:37 250 is perfect, I just need confirmation of finals and we're then done on that front too 19:07:57 we need to make sure that's a little above what tamo brings to the table 19:08:01 we're assuming a decent chunk of people won't need accom ( off-sit / at-home) 19:08:12 because we need some water and snacks etc. in there as well 19:08:19 ack 19:08:23 DLange, I am adding a 5% to the budget for the total, for discretionary purposes 19:08:27 and special food 19:08:39 to make anything we need extra a bit easier to organize, than having to ask for re-approval 19:08:47 and the braai will be a bit more expensive, so the normal food needs to stay a bit more below the water line 19:09:09 makes sense nkukard, good accounting practice 19:09:10 anything to action here? move on? 19:09:27 tumbleweed: you need to do the maths with ipython 19:09:40 and then submit something that works in total to nkukard 19:09:44 somebody has to :) 19:09:45 #action tumbleweed to double-check food figures fit into the budget 19:09:52 and submit... 19:09:53 ok 19:09:56 NEXT 19:10:04 ginggs: ready to come back to you? 19:10:15 sure 19:10:17 DLange: what do mean? 19:10:19 #topic visa team (reprise) 19:10:40 18:37 < tumbleweed> ginggs: anyone contact you yet? 19:10:40 18:37 < tumbleweed> do you need more manpower? 19:10:40 18:37 < tumbleweed> personpower! 19:10:59 also, any children requests, yet? 19:11:00 so far i've only dealt with two queries by irc 19:11:03 DLange: we did get a quote from Mathew for afternoon tea R2000 per day 19:11:17 one ended up not needing a visa 19:11:24 ginggs: \o/ 19:11:33 sounds like you've got this well in hand 19:11:43 tamo: o.k., we need those offers in the git please 19:11:54 the other is bringing children, and so still needs certified copies of birth certs (according to SA embassy in DE) 19:11:55 DLange: the Braai is included in the quote 19:12:34 tamo: right 19:12:43 next then 19:12:52 DLange: they are 19:13:00 #topic lecture theatre reservations 19:13:03 ginggs: pitty, was hoping that would change in time 19:13:17 highvoltage: we don't want to be guinea-pigs :( 19:13:18 DLange: please see the quotes in Git that cover all 19:13:31 indiebio found her other debcamp proof of registration 19:13:38 so we do have venues booked for the entire time 19:13:41 tamo: o.k., I thought the afternoon tea one was new 19:13:50 we've also added one more room, between snape and menzies 19:14:00 DLange: nope we asked Matt to unclude that in 19:14:11 include 19:14:12 tamo: o.k., thank you 19:14:57 we still don't have any super-big lecture theatres. The biggest booked are 219 seater 19:15:02 tumbleweed, indiebio: can we get an overview of the rooms (sizes, seats, wired network?) in the wiki? For content and video teams to plan with. 19:15:26 tumbleweed, nkukard: budget wise, the venues people said 'quote coming' but I've never been charged for rooms before. we were hoping to just fly under the radar, but now that we're asking about the drawing room and the big lecture, we might remind them :) 19:15:43 DLange: http://srvwinweb001.wf.uct.ac.za/SPlusTTable/Venues.aspx?AcadYear=2016 gives you sizes 19:15:53 DLange: I'm pretty sure I documented it somewhere, but if I can find that I can put it in the wiki? 19:16:07 DLange: http://www.icts.uct.ac.za/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3363 gives you maps 19:16:27 yes, https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16/Bids/Cape_Town/Venues/UCT_ChemEng#What_kind_of_places_are_available_suitable_for_hacklabs.2C_workshops.2C_BoFs_and_talks.3F on the wiki 19:16:42 tumbleweed: we need the rooms we have in the DebConf wiki. You can put these links there but they are not replacing a definitive "what we have booked" list in our wiki 19:16:53 indiebio, oki ... if I have values I'm happy, flying by mostly my thumb sucks atm :D 19:16:59 that wiki page is incomplet, though 19:17:03 DLange: yeah, we need to do that 19:17:15 tumbleweed, DLange: probably a good idea to update the bid info to final info anyway, I'm sure people will be curious. I mean to update it for accessibility as well. 19:17:29 indiebio: no, I'd leave the bid as is 19:17:36 we create new pages, not alter the bid 19:17:47 tumbleweed: I meant, transfer the info and update. sorry. you can action me to do that. 19:18:00 yes, other namespace. But copying and amending the content is quite o.k. 19:18:08 #action indiebio to create a wiki page dersibing our reserved rooms 19:18:25 pff typos 19:18:40 #topic accom again 19:18:40 Wi undastand U 19:18:47 sorry, before I forget, I have some more questinos 19:18:53 and indiebio asked a question 19:19:02 I can dersibe! 19:19:18 i did? 19:19:40 you said something about booking rooms in fuller 19:19:53 tamo: your e-mail said you'd seen some rooms 19:19:58 did you find out what the bathroom layout is 19:20:08 also, are there bedrooms on the ground floor (wheelchair accessible) 19:20:46 * tumbleweed hopes we still have a tamo 19:20:51 ginggs: did you look around, too? 19:21:03 so apparently fuller has ~5 double rooms. 19:21:34 tamo asked if we can move more beds into single rooms for couples. and tamo asked about catering for meals other than breakfast in fuller. 19:21:54 I wasn't in those discussions. AFAIK the bathrooms are all shared. 19:22:01 tumbleweed: only been to fuller once, saw the dining hall, rec room etc. no bedrooms 19:22:02 yeah, but how are they shared 19:22:17 1 between two rooms, or big bathrooms downstairs, or what? 19:22:32 also, we need to know about accessible rooms 19:22:48 highvoltage: have you chatted to the Protea hotel next to the Wild Fig restaurant? thay apparently have a deal with UCt, so I'd hope their rates are reasonable - this for fancy people. 19:22:57 tumbleweed: bathrooms per floor, IIRC 19:23:17 indiebio: ok, we need to describe this somewhere. People need to know 19:23:23 indiebio: not yet but I'm happy to give them a call 19:23:29 * cate forgot the meeting... reading 19:23:32 I need to ask about accessible rooms, it is indicated as such on the map, but I couldn't find definitive info. Please action me on that too 19:23:47 tumbleweed: yes we need to know how many double rooms that we needs so they can make a plan 19:23:50 #action indiebio to find out about accessible rooms 19:24:03 indiebio: you know how to find the UCT accessibility people, I assume 19:24:04 highvoltage: If I still have the email, I'll forward it to you - an email sent to UCT saying about the 'good deal' 19:24:19 tumbleweed: Belinda. :) and some random stalking always works. 19:24:24 tumbleweed: so sorry I am working on 2 jobs at the same time so a little distracted but will give my full attention now 19:24:29 Chapter 7 of my PhD is just taking up time. 19:24:32 tamo: my guess would be all of the actually double ones 19:24:44 indiebio: ok thanks, I kept some track of accessibility on https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16/Accomodation/External (will look weird if you're not logged in though) 19:24:49 tamo: we'll continue to refine this, as registration comes in 19:25:00 indiebio: of course 19:25:05 highvoltage: thanks. Sven asked about on campus though. 19:25:07 tumbleweed: Yup but taht is just 5 rooms 19:25:18 yes, probably more 19:25:38 OK, we're done with this reprise, I think 19:26:02 mmm it saves space to, is there a possibility that we might book all rooms? 19:26:14 tamo: hard to say 19:26:18 I mean, we have booked them all 19:26:21 but we can adjust 19:26:26 tumbleweed: makes thing 10 x easier :) 19:26:31 #topic Status of finances (budget, fundraising) 19:26:43 nkukard? 19:26:57 DLange? 19:27:26 we're at ~70k$ sponsors so far 19:27:38 that's a long way from where we want to be :( 19:27:53 yes, not a single local sponsor so far 19:28:05 they usually make 30..50% of the total 19:28:06 yeah 19:28:20 tumbleweed: can you give me an idea of the double rooms plus minus so we can get back to Neerusha 19:28:54 70k in march seems ok. 19:28:55 tamo: we simply don't know at this point. I can give you the current figures after th emeeting, but that's the bes tI can do 19:28:58 hmm one of my clients as well as LSD were very interested, I won'd discuss either here but will ask in -sponsors if I can follow up with them 19:29:06 tumbleweed: ok no probem 19:29:19 $70k is around half was isn't it? or is it worse than I think? 19:29:38 tumbleweed, just waiting for finals on the accom/food and I'm going to start prodding team leads for their finals :) 19:29:40 yes, double that would be nice 19:30:00 nkukard: excellent 19:30:15 we do have some headroom due to the very successful (and well budget-managed) DC15 but ... yeah, we need local sponsors 19:30:20 nkukard: in other news, we may have a video team lead, pollo has called for a video team meeting 19:30:53 indiebio: have we done a call for sponsors to CLUG? 19:30:57 the locals I spoke to were concerned about being swamped by Euro contributing sponsors. Not sure if that is just a perception/hustling technique. and most are very very quiet. 19:31:00 DLange: I think also more global std sponsors should come, looking on main pages 19:31:04 awesome 19:31:17 tumbleweed: i did a while ago and have been planning to send another round. but haven't yet... 19:31:33 OK, let me do a round 19:31:42 I do think the whole team needs to print some flyers and do some word of mouth!! 19:31:45 #action tumbleweed to needle CLUG about sponsors 19:32:17 cate: yes, we're not done yet on the long standing friends of Debian. But no miracles from the sponsors team to be expected. 19:32:28 we also need to push the press release, I need to catch up with larjona 19:32:33 that might help too 19:32:59 do it soon please 19:33:05 won't help in May anymore 19:33:06 #action indiebio to catch up with larjona about the press release 19:33:24 #topic exports of bursaries, etc 19:33:37 * bremner blinks 19:33:38 so, I was hoping we'd have enough API up to not need CSV exports 19:33:45 but of course, we don't :P 19:33:48 hope dies last 19:33:52 I'll be hacking at this 19:33:55 csv exports are fine for me 19:33:56 I *want* csv exports :) 19:33:59 both exports, and maybe API 19:34:02 I hate the web 19:34:13 bremner: :) 19:34:14 it's ok the web hates you too 19:34:22 19:34:27 * DLange seconds bremner. We're old style. Libreoffice is what makes us work on these things. 19:34:30 #topic next steps 19:34:49 DLange: well, the advantage of an API is that you can keep your state in wafer, and not have to reconcile spreadsheets 19:35:08 I see: daytrip, badges (name-tags, that is), t-shirts 19:35:31 tumbleweed: What extra bits of API do we need? 19:35:34 tumbleweed: tell that to UCT / CMC. Won't work with them. We need (what they call) Excel sheets :) 19:35:39 Hodgestar: KV access 19:35:43 Ah. 19:35:44 API landed just before KV 19:35:53 CSV probably won't help much with the KV stuff. 19:36:11 And likely easier to build CSV on top of the API (or at least using similar stuff). 19:36:11 Hodgestar: see the current registration export, it works when you know what keys you're expecting 19:36:13 we need the KVs in there 19:36:36 tumbleweed: Have you seen the tsv module? 19:36:36 the exports are no use otherwise as all interesting data is in the KV variables now 19:36:37 I would really like some central place where we track how much we have promised each person 19:36:39 Hodgestar: ack, re CSV on API, that was the plan 19:37:04 and how much we have given them 19:37:19 DLange: Genuine question -- what should the CSV with KV variables look like, btw? Column for every used key? 19:37:19 but we can discuss that later 19:37:28 Hodgestar: yes 19:37:31 we could also do a bursaries console, if someone is up to that... 19:37:42 Hodgestar: look at the current registration export 19:38:18 tumbleweed: we need to hit the ground running with bursaries, so can't afford any blockers to the decision process 19:38:28 btw, is there a budget for the video team to get gear to ZA or rent gear in ZA? 19:38:29 bremner: agreed 19:38:29 please note: we used summit, which is also a django based system, so we can recycle much code (and improve later) 19:39:29 h01ger: not yet, video has not submitted a plan so the budget is at zero so far 19:39:42 eeeks 19:40:05 * h01ger recommends to add 5000 USD there, to be on the safe side 19:40:14 bring a plan first and nkukard will hear you 19:40:20 * h01ger shrugs 19:40:58 the topic is currently next steps: I take it nobody has anything to say on this 19:41:13 tumbleweed: I will issue a call for bursaries team members soon 19:41:20 April 3 at the latest 19:41:20 "next steps" is pretty generic. planning video should be some step some time 19:41:30 h01ger: totally 19:41:37 h01ger: butall the wafer talk was OT 19:41:41 do we have somebody investing time in the daytrip options? 19:41:47 DLange: i think the orga team should support the video team… else you shouldnt be surprised if there is no video 19:42:01 h01ger: of course we will 19:42:04 h01ger: we do. You'll get what you need. Promise. 19:42:05 my only plans for next 1-2 week is poking at web/wiki pages, accomodation contacts and if it's ok with sponsors team, getting in touch with 2 potential sponsors 19:42:08 h01ger, pollo I think is video team lead, feel free to drop -team a mail and cc him? maybe we can get a value hashed out pretty soon 19:42:15 ah, there he is! 19:42:16 h01ger: just $random number doesn't help in the budget. 19:42:22 about video team's budget, we will have a meeting soon and will decide on that 19:42:25 DLange: that is the usual process for the video team 19:42:27 DLange: its not a random number 19:42:36 (and i disagree that it wont help) 19:42:39 thanks pollo 19:42:54 DLange: when's the deadline? 19:42:59 * h01ger is very happy about pollo stepping in too, "btw" 19:43:01 pollo: yesterday? :) 19:43:06 pollo: ASAP 19:43:10 pollo: we're about to submit the budget to the DPL 19:43:11 DLange: yes I have a list for that and debconf dinner just ned the time to put a document together halfway there 19:43:14 so we need something in there 19:43:24 by that I meant "do we have time to wait for a meeting next week?" 19:43:31 pollo: the team know nows that the video team will need some money, roughly in the 5k scale. so they have been warned 19:43:38 pollo: I'd start with a preliminary figure, as h01ger is suggesting 19:44:05 yeah, 5K US sounds good 19:44:18 Video budget DC15: 5k€, spend <2k€ 19:44:36 DLange: we borried a pile of ancient hardware 19:44:39 DLange: but this year we might need to rent / buy new gear 19:44:50 buying new gear can be funded outside the DC budget 19:45:07 this DPL (for the next 10 minutes while he's aronud) is keen on throwing money at problems 19:45:08 so document the plan, pretty please? 19:45:27 DLange: yes I have put options together for daytrips and dinner, just need to put it all in a document half way there 19:45:40 great, tamo, thank you. 19:46:16 Sledge, who is infra lead btw? 19:46:21 woops 19:46:22 DLange: sure 19:46:22 tamo: consider putting the daytrip options on the debconf wiki, people will need it there 19:46:38 nkukard: RichiH 19:46:43 thats it, RichiH 19:47:10 next topic? 19:47:21 DLange: yup there are some on there but will do I have managed to get prices and options for the day trips as well as dinner so we can start getting budgets sorted for that 19:47:38 #topic FAQ page 19:47:48 I'd say the procedure is: JFDI (just edit it) 19:47:59 there was a lot of copy-pasta there from dc14 (I think?) 19:48:06 I think I cleaned it all out 19:48:06 yes 19:48:30 cool, thanks. 19:48:44 wave a URL around in hree, if you want someone to look at your edit 19:49:11 'K. and the last item, press@d.o., I'll ask larjona and then chase up Ganneff. 19:49:11 #topic publicity 19:49:17 indiebio: you wanted a press@d.o 19:49:21 yes, chase Ganneff 19:49:25 https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16/FAQs 19:49:52 #topic any other business 19:51:00 on emails, do people want an email from the meeting with the action items included, sent, say, the next day? 19:51:18 I would not complain about such an email 19:51:21 I'm willing to do it. 19:51:28 I would find it useful too 19:51:29 great. 19:51:32 I would also like it 19:51:35 done. 19:51:36 and we really should be looking at those, at the beginning of meetings 19:51:45 bad chair 19:51:53