19:58:29 #startmeeting DebConf15 bid status meeting 19:58:29 Meeting started Thu Feb 20 19:58:29 2014 UTC. The chair is moray_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:58:29 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 19:58:35 marga: I'll fetch it. 19:59:13 #topic Pre-meeting 19:59:19 Agenda at https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/Bid_process#Bid_status_meeting 19:59:59 I think it's traditional for people to mangle their nicks to show what bid team they are from, though probably we can work it out without that. 20:00:30 we can do that :) 20:00:46 #addchair gwolf 20:00:51 #addchair h01ger 20:01:06 there 20:01:22 gerry said he might be able to join, but he wasn't sure 20:01:27 same with azeem 20:02:07 And do we have some people here *not* from bid teams? 20:02:14 * gwolf is here 20:02:17 -ish 20:02:22 * h01ger barely 20:02:36 * cate 20:02:43 . 20:03:45 #topic Introductions from teams and their members 20:04:25 By pseudo-random selection, Karlskrona team please introduce your team (very briefly) first / say any non-question things you want to mention (very briefly) 20:04:38 (Questions come later on.) 20:05:15 brother-karlskrona 20:06:19 pseudorandom.kick(seed) 20:06:22 yes ok. hi 20:06:37 I haven't prepared anything for this section. it will be me representing us tonight. 20:07:12 moray_: can't we do this with questions? Or let us go first 20:07:39 madduck-de: seconded -- you have two people with more experience in this; that would allow us to understand what's expected 20:07:45 This is just meant to be "hi, I am blah from team blah. we think our bid is great except for the problem with donkeys" 20:07:55 oh. okay. 20:07:57 yeah, we have donkey problems too 20:07:58 ;) 20:08:05 okay, I will go first, moray… ok? 20:08:12 ok 20:08:15 * zlatan curses damn donkeys 20:08:24 moray_: how did you hear of our donkey problems? 20:08:33 Hi from the German team! 20:08:34 ok. I can add that our main problem is the accomodation part and that we are fairly few at this stage. 20:08:38 that's all 20:08:48 we have a roster on the wiki: https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf15/Germany/Bid#Local_team 20:09:00 * gwolf is a student at a university where the symbol/pet is a white donkey and feels personally insulted by your problems. 20:09:06 There's a lot of DC and other conference experience in our rows 20:09:19 And we are very excited to be partaking in this bidding 20:09:26 Our goal is a top-quality conference 20:09:38 and we are quite aware of budget issues that usually come to haunt people 20:09:55 For this and other reasons 20:10:10 we decided to not focus on a single location until after the bid decision is made 20:10:22 so that we can negotiate and play locations off against each other 20:10:37 We expect this to increase quality and make more money available tof rtravel sponroship 20:10:47 that's it… 20:11:10 ok, Mechelen is left 20:11:20 and then Karlskrona can add anything they thought of after that 20:11:22 yeah 20:11:33 so, our team consists of a healthy mix of debconf regulars and fosdem organisers 20:12:03 there's some good experience in the fosdem organisers, and we think we can make things run quite smoothly 20:12:32 our main problem is that we found prices to be a bit higher, and didn't get a quick reply from the city government, which reduced moral somewhat. 20:12:37 morale, even 20:13:04 we're picking up again now, but there are a number of questions still open. I have good confidence that we'll be able to work those issues out, however, and make a great conference in a wonderful city 20:13:20 that's it, I suppose 20:14:10 any other interjections from Karlskrona? 20:14:13 nope 20:14:17 great, thanks 20:14:25 #topic Questions from teams about the process, and about what others suggest they try to do on any uncertain aspects or potential problems 20:14:46 OK, kind of free-for-all on questions about the process, or anything you need help/advice with on your bids 20:14:53 what's the timeline for the decision? 20:15:09 that is to be determined :) normally we have this meeting then a second one a week or two later 20:15:32 so that would be the first week of march, then? 20:15:33 It would be really helpful to have a date to work towards 20:15:38 I don't think we really have enough non-bidders here to make any decision today, unless one of the bids wants to withdraw 20:15:56 needs not be today, but it's really difficult to talk with people and not give them a date by when we'll know. 20:16:25 madduck-de: right, I would suggest we keep to the traditional timeline like that. I was going to ask teams about this later if not raised now 20:16:25 so if we agree that +2 weeks we'll have a decision meeting with a coin toss at the end if necessary, that's good. 20:16:38 moray_: fine… 20:16:50 can we come back to this at the end of the meeting? 20:16:53 sure 20:17:02 sure 20:17:14 any other process issues? 20:17:25 or e.g. questions about what is needed for a good bid in some aspect 20:17:26 not from here 20:17:49 no 20:18:11 I might ask some of those later on, but I don't have any such questions right now 20:18:21 sure, they can always be asked on the list anyway 20:18:34 yeah, that's what I mean 20:18:36 it's just useful to have bid teams confirm that they are happy and doubt-free 20:18:39 :) 20:18:58 so if we don't have anything in this part, ... 20:18:59 #topic Questions to teams, if there are still unanswered issues 20:19:32 I know we don't have many non-bidders here; questions from bid teams are also ok, but please don't try to score points, just to clarify anything that is unclear 20:19:44 As a first question: 20:20:07 A question to all bids: if we were just deciding "yes/no" to your bid, how long would you want us to wait before making that decision? (= do you think your bid is ready to be judged now, or if not how much more time does it need?) 20:20:07 my answer message to cate was caught in the moderation filter thing to the list and I haven't seen it yet myself. 20:20:47 rather sooner than later. 20:20:58 moray_: I think there's always room for improvement on the bid, but I'd rather not postpone things too much anymore 20:21:12 and I think we know the position of the german team :) 20:21:17 we can dig out more details ofc but I do think there are enough information already. 20:21:41 brother-karlskrona: ok. the lack of detail on, e.g. accommodation, might mean that people rule out your bid, is that acceptable for you? 20:21:53 yes ofc 20:21:57 .de wants a quick decision either way 20:22:10 So, I'm going to ask a few question about a couple of subjects that worry me. I should have done this on-list but didn't sorry. 20:22:17 Question for Mechelen: the hostel is affordable, but it's relatively small and not so close to the venue. The hotels, that are close, are less affordable. It looks like sponsored people will have to be far away, with a hard limit on how many those can be, while non-sponsored people will need to pay a noticeable amount of money. Is that your plan? 20:22:18 as to how long "long" is... 20:22:42 marga-de: that is one option 20:22:59 we are reasonably confident to be able to host dc15 in either of the two locations and with an affirmative decision, we'd be able to concentrate on making it really good (in either place) 20:23:18 wouter-mechelen, is there another option? 20:23:23 marga-de: the other option would be to put all accomodation costs in one big basket, and have an "average" price of something like 30-45 for everyone 20:23:58 of course, those who want a single room would have to pay the full price 20:24:00 wouter-mechelen, you mean, nobody gets free accom? 20:24:06 marga-de: no, not that 20:24:29 wouter-mechelen, so, people in the hotels would get subsidized accom? 20:24:42 marga-de: if the hostel is full, yes 20:24:58 ok. 20:25:07 Question for Mechelen: has anybody actually walked from the hostel to the venue to time the distance accurately? 20:25:10 marga-de: I see that as an option, but indeed, what you described above is actually more likely 20:25:37 marga-de: I have often walked from the trainstation to the venue, which is approximately the same distance. That is about 15 minutes walking 20:25:46 ok 20:25:52 Question for Kalskrona: I already asked before, but I'm worried about the bus situation. How frequent they are and how does that change outside peak hours (Sat/Sun or even late night). 20:25:54 marga-de: I haven't actually done the distance hostel->venue, but it's not that much difference 20:25:57 (120 * 20 + 20 * 99 + 160 * 109/2.)/300. → 44€ average price incl. breakfast with 20 singles, full hostel and the rest in doubles in hotel rooms, of 300 people. 20:26:14 madduck-de, that's for Mechelen, right? 20:26:17 yes 20:26:34 madduck-de: weekdays from 6:30, saturdays from 8:30, sundays from 10:30. the stop regular schedule at 21:30 all days. one departure every 30 minutes. 20:26:37 SORRY! 20:26:42 marga-de: weekdays from 6:30, saturdays from 8:30, sundays from 10:30. the stop regular schedule at 21:30 all days. one departure every 30 minutes. 20:26:47 no worries ;) 20:27:04 30 minutes seems a lot :-/ 20:27:11 Question for Kalskrona: The prices quoted for hotels are really high, do you expect to get better prices or do you think those are the best you can get? 20:27:12 <_rene_-de> this means no bus after 21:30 anymore? 20:27:34 _rene_-de: indeed. 20:27:46 _rene_-de: taxis and walking after that =( 20:27:55 brother-karlskrona: how long a walk? 20:27:56 how long is the walk? 20:27:58 I guess this also means no hacklab after 21:30... Will there be hacklabs in the city? 20:29:24 ah, sorry, the info is in the wiki: In walking distance this is about 30-40 minutes (local bus connection is good, though). 20:29:27 brother-karlskrona: sorry 20:29:32 wouter-mechelen: 30-45 minutes. I do it in 30 minutes but I am fairly quick. 2,3 km 20:29:38 right 20:29:45 that's doable, but only barely IMO 20:29:46 brother-karlskrona, bikes? 20:29:46 RichiH-de: ^ 20:30:06 or a shuttle service, *might* work… 20:30:17 Those were my questions. 20:30:18 marga-de: I don't know about rental bikes. I guess there are some given the tourist nature of the city. that's a popular solution to things these days 20:30:21 madduck-de: We have come to distrust the "magic buses" solution 20:30:22 i mean, renting the car and paying a student wouldn't be too much 20:30:27 <_rene_-de> brother-karlskrona: with or without luggage? :) 20:30:44 having buses of our own (or for our own) makes things much messier 20:30:46 _rene_-de: I walk quick without luggge indeed. =) 20:30:49 i dont mind you having this meeting, but... it feels like a nice excersize in debating to me 20:30:50 gwolf: i was just at a conf with awesome student-run shuttle service, and it wasn't very expensive actually 20:31:02 My hotel prices question is still unanswered, though 20:31:03 (so keep on, i will just keep on doing what i'm doing :) 20:31:10 madduck-de: I have been at similar things. But we are too spread and unpredictable IMO 20:31:29 marga-de: I haven't forgotten it. sorry for the delay 20:31:30 gwolf: 3 shuttles, 20 hours/day at 800 €/day 20:31:57 gwolf: the 3 shuttles worked according to the ATM routing principles and it worked perfectly well. 20:32:03 and it was an unconference, so it was very chaotic 20:32:26 umh, which for (say) 10 days, would be 8000€, were we to get that pricing 20:32:37 I'd rather avoid it if possible! 20:32:38 * RichiH-de notes that mpls-te > atm 20:32:44 (if not possible, it could be arranged) 20:32:51 gwolf: which isn't so bad if we can get cheaper accomodation or a cheaper venue, actually. 20:32:51 marga-de: regarding the accomodation thing. hotels seems to be about €85 for a room for up to three. that would include breakfast and all that usual stuff. list price. 85/3=30. I found that the hostel price is about €20 for a room. no breakfast and there are not super many rooms available in that option. 20:33:00 madduck-de: right... 20:33:07 gwolf: yes, avoid if you can, but it seems to me that karlskrona would need it. 20:33:24 at least during peak hours. 20:33:45 brother-karlskrona, ah, I had missed the /3, I thought it was per person. 30 € seems okish. 20:34:13 marga-de: oh. indeed. 20:34:30 ok, please quote per person per night figures instead :) 20:34:31 marga-de: I think it's a bit on the high end of the scale but 90/person is bad =) 20:34:51 well, 30/person is below .be and .de and might just leave enough money for the shuttles. ;) 20:34:53 all numbers will be assumed to be per person per night regardless 20:35:02 ok. sorry 20:35:37 brother-karlskrona: I think it would be useful if you did a rough budget for the next meeting, and sent it to the list beforehand 20:35:38 saying "for X rooms" doesn't disambiguate, as you still normally have different pppn for different room types :) 20:35:42 adjusted in wiki also to not fool anyone reading the historic things 20:35:46 it's doable, but you are working with a difficult baseline 20:36:07 madduck-de: how many more next meetings do you plan/foresee? 20:36:17 h01ger: to be discussed at the end. 20:36:30 brother-karlskrona: would you be okay with that and can we move on? 20:36:31 .oO( we dont even have formed a comittee yet... :) if we need one... ) 20:36:35 madduck-de: sure. 20:36:55 are there any questions to .de? 20:37:16 question to Germany: how long do you plan to/can you hold off on deciding a final venue? (note that I generally think flexibility is good -- in several years we changed major details about the venue quite a way through the year, e.g. in Argentina, Nicaragua, Spain) 20:37:38 moray_: I was about to ask the same thing :) 20:37:41 marga-de: sorry. hacklab in the city pretty much a no go. but I guess people can use the corridors in the hotels as we did in BL or such. 20:38:09 marga-de: and arranging to use the hacklab durings nights is possible. just the transportation that is messy. 20:38:47 moray_: good question, you are forcing me to answer separately for the two locations! ;) 20:39:13 moray_: Heidelberg is in place until end of March, but Heidelberg also would let us cancel in spring 2015 without any costs 20:39:33 of course, we ought not count on that, but I think we can get 2–3 months before we have to sign. 20:40:09 Munich is a bit different because there are more contractual partners. The only difficult one would be the hostel 20:40:16 but I imagine we could swing a deal with them 20:40:22 and what is the timeframe for more clarity on free stuff in Munich? 20:40:46 define "free stuff"? 20:40:56 venue? 20:40:56 madduck-de: venue 20:41:00 madduck-de: there was something with the dean having to decide something? 20:42:08 We are on it. The dean has refused to commit at this stage. We are trying to schedule a hearing, and there is resistance forming in the Hochschule against being so sluggish about this, because many seem to want DebConf 20:42:22 there's a bit of Debian at the Hochschule, so we ought to get good support from various ranks 20:42:43 but any expectation on a timeframe? 20:43:02 also, we mobilized several contacts into the teaching body to increase internal pressure 20:43:32 (do you expect an answer in days or in months?) 20:43:33 moray_: ~2-3 weeks 20:43:42 moray_: just to be clear: you are asking about when we can have a certain response from munich about getting the venue for free? 20:43:43 that would be the absolute maximum 20:44:01 yeah 20:45:15 moray_: it's noteworthy that heidelberg knows the munich option is strong and even _if(!)_ this didn't work out, we would keep that option "alive" in heidelberg's eyes 20:45:22 there are no reasons that actually speak against dc15 there, i.e. the venue is free, it's non-profit, conferences have run there before, we had it signed off for 2011 20:45:35 so we think it's just a question of communication and information. 20:46:15 and munich knows that heidelberg exists and is keen to host us, and they know that debconf has traditionally been hosted at universities half the time 20:46:42 which is why there is so much desire from students and staff to have it at "their" school. 20:47:32 also, HM is the "least" of the three munich universities so that's another source of local pride and feud which should play into our hands 20:47:49 there's also another question there -- what does it mean for it to be "internal" there? how would it affect the event from our viewpoint? 20:47:52 yeah, that was an obvious hint by the dean of studies for IT 20:48:02 how many extra attendees do you expect this would mean? 20:48:12 moray_: 20–30, maybe 50 20:48:25 they would get free attendance, not food and no accomodation 20:48:38 and some would be orga team, I am sure 20:48:58 great way to hire new DDs! 20:49:09 but the organisation in general would still be as we want it, just with help from them where desired? (I'm assuming yes) 20:49:09 * h01ger likes this part very much 20:49:17 moray_: yes 20:49:34 the reason why it needs to be internal is that it would not be possible to pay to rent that venue 20:49:59 right 20:50:02 if it's internal, the chairs pay the "rent" from their internal funds towards the "house" if that makes sense 20:50:21 but that means that we need to actually provide a teaching oppurtunity for students 20:50:26 which is a _huge_ plus to me 20:50:47 madduck-de: Just as $random_person always gets free entry to DebConf. 20:50:52 matter of fact, if this flies, debcamp could be kicked off with a debian day for the students or such 20:51:01 (but if they see it as a plys, much the better :) 20:51:09 that, in turn, could increase interest in hacking sessions, etc 20:51:16 while their students organise a conference for Debian! ;) 20:51:19 debday, and maybe a more user-oriented day of debconf… 20:51:22 gwolf: yeah, I knew we weren't giving much away ;) 20:51:36 for one, I love the idea of it being in an university setting again 20:51:45 it's noteworthy that students would be free to register properly to pay for food, etc 20:51:46 and it's a frickin' nice university! 20:52:03 … in addition to the free tickets we give out 20:52:11 that would also mean that we will need wristbands or some such to determine who paid 20:52:23 gwolf: it's basically all very open, so hacking would happen in corners and rooms, we'd eat right there in the middle of things 20:52:25 very deutsch :/ 20:52:26 ok, any more questions from people? 20:52:29 and the talk rooms would be in all directions. 20:52:48 RichiH-de: we need wrist bands or so anyway due to shifts, if we need them. 20:52:58 h01ger: you haven't been to LCA have you? is that deutsch too? 20:53:08 how large is this campus? 20:53:18 area? students? 20:53:21 i.e. walking distance between rooms, eatingplace, etc 20:53:26 gwolf: <5 mins 20:53:32 any more general comments from bid teams on the flexibility of their proposals, within each city? e.g. if we had a problem about accommodation 6 months before, do you have backup options? 20:53:32 <2 20:53:56 moray_: for mechelen, we haven't contacted all hotels 20:53:59 madduck-de: walking like wouter-mechelen, or walking like entertained-happy DDs who just had too much hefe weißbier? ;-) 20:54:11 gwolf: crawling 20:54:14 there are several more; the three that are part of our bid are just the closest ones 20:54:23 gwolf: it's spacious and integrated. it's great. 20:54:26 so if we have an issue there, that can be fixed by contacting other hotels 20:54:50 as for the venue, there's not really an alternative 20:55:03 moray_: I am sure that we could find alternatives 6 months prior, but we'd also have a contract with the youth hostel then 20:55:14 we did contact the educational institute in Mechelen, but they don't have auditoriums that are large enough 20:55:14 sure, if it burnt down… but then their insurance would have to put us up. 20:55:42 gwolf, moray_: http://goo.gl/maps/QaiPX 20:56:05 the modern, long building with the red cube 20:56:05 moray_: I don't think it's worth to organise a backup up front, but it's important to have a lawyer on the contract, which won't be a problem and won't cost me anything. 20:56:23 RichiH-de: osm.org! 20:56:35 the flat roof with glass in the middle houses one open indoor space 20:56:48 and we would not be using much else than this area and the surrounding rooms. 20:56:55 two storeys with the upper one basically a balcony 20:57:14 madduck-de: osm does not have airial pictures (yet) 20:57:48 I think this has degenerated 20:57:58 marga-de: yes, I tried to wind it up a moment ago 20:58:06 any *different* questions? 20:58:15 please discuss details of the above things on the list 20:58:37 Schedule for the next meeting is then the missing question. 20:59:03 #topic Next meeting 20:59:36 (silence) 20:59:39 Though please speak up if any bids have suddenly decided to withdraw :) 21:00:00 do we consider all bids good enough? 21:00:17 (sorry to interrupt) paraphrasing h01ger: is there a reason not to decide today, besides tradition? IMo the choice is quite obvious 21:01:17 I updated the bus information after rereading it again. sorry for the confusion. https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf15/Bids/Karlskrona/checklist#Buses_in_the_town 21:01:27 gregoa: It seems to be very obvious to one set of people, but I have heard views in support of multiple bids. 21:01:28 last bus leaves just before midnight. 21:01:31 Not just from the bid teams. 21:01:40 not much much better but later at least 21:01:56 moray_: hear hear. can you be more verbose? 21:02:11 moray_: ok, I wasn't aware of that 21:02:35 h01ger: Well, I know lots of people think that Germany are the obvious winners, but I've also had people tell me that Belgium is their choice. 21:03:00 I'm talking about the recent, post-bid-materials time frame. 21:03:40 Before that I heard people in favour of all options; I don't think I heard pro-Karlskrona more recently ... though the wiki page suggesting the accommodation was €90 per person per night may not have helped 21:03:49 moray_: well, this is debian... :) i wondered about reason(ing)s, not just mere factual preferences 21:05:10 so next we need is a comitee or shall we first try to find consensus? 21:05:23 It won't hurt to give each team a bit more time to polish their bids. In the end, we want the best to win and if the best get better, yay for debconf. 21:05:59 h01ger: I don't see that we will magically reach consensus in 5 minutes just now. 21:06:10 We won't be able to do much more until we have a green light, but if it helps others to improve… 21:06:23 moray_: i havent seen anyone disagreeing yet, so maybe we have consensus in 3secs :) 21:06:36 s/in 3secs/already/ 21:06:38 h01ger: we also don't have many non-bidders here 21:06:46 I guess that some of the non-German bid teams still want to win 21:06:54 since they didn't withdraw when asked above 21:07:05 speaking for myself, yes 21:07:20 I will withdraw if and when I am convinced that another team is an obvious winner 21:07:21 same 21:07:23 but that isn't now 21:07:30 let the games begin! 21:07:37 i think we should drop the swedish bid and thank them for their efforts. 21:08:23 h01ger: if we still have a decision to make, and if the Swedish team is still wanting to push, we don't have to drop it 21:08:28 we dont need to excercise all options for the sake of exploring them, IMO. 21:08:53 I also don't see them as a strong offer WRT the two others. But if we will anyway have a next meeting, it won't hurt having .se 21:09:17 I agree with h01ger. if you want to remove options that is a fair way to go. 21:09:28 it will take more time for the whole meeting, it will cause pointless work in .se, it causes pointless work #here. 21:09:47 exact reason. 21:10:02 brother-karlskrona: would you consider running again for dc17? 21:10:03 brother-karlskrona: If you are willing to drop out, I won't argue 21:10:07 brother-karlskrona: for the record, this is germany's third attempt in a row 21:10:10 I had personally discounted it before in part due to the expensive accommodation, which turns out to be a misunderstanding. 21:10:16 gwolf: that's not what I said. 21:10:16 But certainly it has detail lacking. 21:10:27 i'm really happy we have this swedish bid. but i also think we need to be honest and say "thanks for bidding, the other bids are way better, please keep trying next time!" 21:10:28 brother-karlskrona: I don't want you to put extra effort in case you feel your bid is clearly not the winner 21:10:29 And I don't *expect* that detail to magically appear in the next days -- ? 21:10:38 brother-karlskrona: but it's completely your right to continue IMO 21:10:51 madduck-de: people have told me that they want to push for a new attempt. no specific year mentioned. for my own part I don't know. 21:11:15 brother-karlskrona: OK... So, should we gratiously accept your withdrawal and welcome you to the organizing team? :) 21:11:50 gwolf: I think we have something that is at least as good as the other two. but I am not deciding here - you guys are and you know what parts to look for. if you want to remove us I think that is fair 21:12:16 brother-karlskrona: I think that if you took what you learned this time and kept your eyes open and tried again in two years (it's in europe traditionally only every two years), you'd have a real advantage over anyone trying then. 21:12:41 brother-karlskrona: I'd recommend you to withdraw, as I feel there's a big distance yet to cover. 21:12:42 but if you think you can make it happen this time, then don't withdraw 21:13:08 madduck-de: we would not be here if we didn't think it was worth it ofc =) 21:13:21 madduck-de: same goes for all of us I assume. silly thing otherwise 21:13:49 you have some hard questions to solve between now and the next meeting. 21:14:12 madduck-de: budget. indeed. got it. 21:14:18 wouter-mechelen: I understand that you don't want to withdraw the bid for mechelen with a quick shrug and write it off. since you said "I will withdraw if and when I am convinced", maybe I ask you what/when might make you convinced? 21:14:30 * h01ger thinks this has become too much of a sports competition while it used to be about making the best debconf 21:15:02 20 22:06 < madduck-de> It won't hurt to give each team a bit more time to polish their bids. In the end, we want the best to win and if the best get better, yay for debconf. 21:15:03 * harmoney agrees. 21:15:22 gregoa: not sure about that. Good arguments, I suppose. 21:16:06 wouter-mechelen: ok, makes sense, thanks. so let's wait for the arguments from all interested parties :) 21:16:22 Well, I don't think big arguments are really going to answer this 21:16:36 I didn't say "big", I said "good" 21:17:16 I think the main reasons to hold a debconf anywhere are: price, local team, surroundings 21:17:27 hi 21:17:48 a few weeks ago I wasn't convinced we could do a good price, but I think we can now. local team, we're pretty good. surroundings: mechelen is beautiful (or I wouldn't live here) 21:18:05 hi tiago! any new insight from you? ;) 21:18:44 Unless all local teams agree to respect a decision by "whoever is here now non-bidding", I think we should revert to agreeing a date for the Venue decision meeting, soon, but far enough away to get DebConf Committee people to attend it 21:18:46 if I hear good reasons why the germany or sweden bids would be better on those three, I would withdraw. Right now we have a maybe-free venue for munich, but that seems to be not certain yet 21:19:07 moray_: we also need to form/wake up the committee again 21:19:08 anyway, yeah, that works for me 21:19:55 wouter-mechelen: we have heidelberg finished and ready to go too… 21:20:00 h01ger: right, I meant to include that in my "get people" 21:20:30 madduck-de: yes, I am aware of that 21:21:08 I don't expect a very different answer in (say) two weeks from voting now, but I suspect that the bid teams would prefer the wider/deeper input to the final decision 21:21:23 i think we should just toss a coin and on heads, we keep tossing until we have a winner of three, and on tails, all three have to organise a debconf in 2015 21:21:40 ... 21:21:43 moray_: maybe not all bid teams, but more than half of them, yes. 21:21:46 moray_: I'm not sure about that 21:21:51 I think this meeting has gone on for too long. 21:21:51 * h01ger is sad that this has come to voting now, instead of discussing arguments 21:22:05 h01ger: I would welcome people discussing arguments, but I haven't seen that 21:22:10 h01ger: sorry! ;) 21:22:46 h01ger: well, certainly I need to leave soon, I don't have time to go into our normal discussion of points now 21:22:50 (and I feel like I'm the wrong person to start discussing things... I've asked a few questions, but, well) 21:23:22 moray_: i feel our normal process has eroded / hasnt happened this time 21:23:31 h01ger: so I would recommend that we have that normal discussion at some close future date (e.g. two weeks) 21:23:43 but maybe in the next meeting.. 21:23:44 (one week could be possible, but harder to get people to attend it) 21:23:55 h01ger: i think the normal process leaves a lot to be desired from the perspective of the bid teams. 21:24:33 h01ger: *any* process has been lacking. I see that as something to be fixed rather than to try to force a decision now that 2/3 of the teams will argue wasn't valid 21:24:34 I will have a hard time attending meetings in the next four weeks. Can we try to find a date? 21:24:57 * gwolf feels so many formal structures here have eroded. But anyway... 21:25:11 so lets just toss a coin ;) 21:25:16 moray_: agreed. I have some suggestions to share, maybe after the bid decision is complete though; and I would really suggest to lock usn in a room with the LCA people and see how they do it. 21:25:20 can we compromise on meeting in one week? 21:25:23 next meeting in 2 weeks? 21:25:36 i think moray_ is right in that there will not be _that_ much change 21:26:00 i think we can have another meeting in 2 weeks but only iff it's guaranteed to end with a decision 21:26:13 also, as i am a newcomer, i am not sure how much debate between teams is appreciated 21:26:26 RichiH-de: this is debian, talk as much as you want 21:26:29 i can only do 5 march. would that work for people? 21:26:30 I should note that I would have been happy with a decision today... 21:26:40 moray_: ^ 21:26:51 madduck-de: very difficult for me 21:27:23 (at least at this hour; might work if it's around 16:00 UTC) 21:27:26 * gwolf would also be happy if we decided today. Yes, we didn't form a committee, and it is a gross oversight from us 21:27:31 I do think that all bid teams would be ok with a decision today to be frank 21:27:34 h01ger: in that case... brother-karlskrona i would _love_ for you to bring a debconf onto the nordic tiger, but i think you need at least one more iteration 21:27:51 and h01ger seems to be the only one with a clear opinion (except us in bid teams) 21:28:05 ...And this meeting fell (almost - hi gregoa!) again into the "bidding interested parties + 3 formally addressed chairs" pattern 21:28:16 \o/ 21:28:21 that is what chairs are *for* 21:28:22 wouter-mechelen: are you certain that all hotels will play along? what's your contingency in case one or two drop out? 21:28:29 you are chairs because you make decisions. ;) 21:28:33 RichiH-de: we have a formal option on the hotels 21:28:36 gwolf: don't forget tiago :) 21:28:44 the price is from a formal quote 21:28:54 madduck-de: yes. And a long time ago I asked for the decision to renew or redraft the chairs mechanism, that is IMO inoperative 21:28:57 please can we *not* revert to discussing the bid details now? 21:28:58 they could drop out, of course, but as said, there are more hotels in the city 21:29:01 I at least need to leave very soon 21:29:02 moray_: sure 21:29:10 gwolf: gregoa: dont forget gregoa & cate! 21:29:40 RichiH-de: In any case, I am not as open as h01ger with my point of view. But I also see much more finalised and firm the .de proposal 21:29:41 wouter-mechelen: ok, good 21:29:51 gwolf: another discussion for another day. At the moment you are chairs and the bid teams are asking you chairs for a decision, so embrace the opportunity to shape the future and write history. 21:29:53 * tiago late, still in backlogs 21:30:07 madduck-de: Sigh, right... :-| 21:30:10 wouter-mechelen: so either the mechelen team agrees the german bid is more mature and withdraws or we will need to find a meeting date. 21:30:15 madduck-de: I rather object to making a decision by chair vote without the more detailed analysis 21:30:25 and I definitely don't have time to start that analysis today 21:30:26 brother-karlskrona, wouter-mechelen: so, for the record, you are both OK with a decision today? 21:30:26 or we chairs agree on something..., 21:30:33 ? 21:30:33 21:30:34 h01ger: or that 21:30:37 gwolf: for 2011, we had a similar situation and if you go back to the logs, you'll find that I made the decision then… *against* Munich. indirectly anyway 21:30:41 RichiH-de: yes, I am. 21:31:03 moray_: I think it's much more important to get an early start than to have a detailed analysis 21:31:10