17:59:53 #startmeeting 17:59:53 Meeting started Tue Jul 2 17:59:53 2013 UTC. The chair is gaudenz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 17:59:53 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:00:11 #chair gwolf 18:00:11 Current chairs: gaudenz gwolf 18:00:20 how else want's to chair? 18:00:23 who 18:00:38 agenda is at https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Meetings/20130702#Agenda, please have a look 18:00:59 please say hi if you are around. 18:01:04 hi 18:01:06 hi 18:01:06 * gwolf is 18:01:07 Hi! 18:01:08 hi 18:01:09 hoi 18:01:12 hi 18:01:29 hi 18:01:44 hui 18:02:15 #topic Team roundtable - Finance and incoming sponsorship status 18:02:58 rafw: sponsorship update? 18:02:59 hi 18:03:34 I can't update the sponsors table at the moment, but my last checkout shows 156 924 CHF of incoming sponsorship 18:03:41 He wrote a mail 18:03:47 rafw mentionned 158k 18:04:15 4 still unpaid/partially paid 18:05:28 The budget was done with 176'000 CHF, but we expect a commitment for another 25k soon to be announced, so we are on track. 18:05:49 gaudenz: there are also the attendee payments 18:06:08 cate: right, but they are not included in the 176k CHF 18:06:14 this is only incoming sponsorship 18:06:51 hug: Did you go over the budget so that we have current estimates for our expenses? 18:06:54 sponsorship is 156k in the current budget (+20k from Debian for newbies initiative) 18:07:07 .oO(Not the Loterie-inflated budget) 18:07:09 25k soon? We need soon the name and the logo for the t-shirt ;-) 18:07:17 #info Loterie Romande communicated a "no" to us. 18:07:24 hug: thanks even better, did not see that the newbies are under sponsorship. 18:07:42 cate: no name and logo for t-shirts probably in this case. 18:08:06 hug: ? 18:08:34 based on the current numbers we do have a surplus, but as we still plan to add more volunteers we should be cautious on new expenses 18:08:40 Are there some budget on wiki or public place? 18:08:47 cate: no it's not updated yet 18:09:12 hug: but we have not yet used all of the 40 additional sponsored attendees that are in the budget, right? 18:09:27 no, we didn't 18:09:34 hi 18:09:36 we only have 50 debcamp attendees 18:09:47 and 240 DebConf 18:10:00 (and we had place for...90 and.. how many?) 18:10:09 that's those that have reconfirmed until now? or all that still have attend=yes? 18:10:14 gwolf: yes, we have place for 90 18:10:21 that's the ones with reconfirmed 18:10:37 so there might be more, so I wouldn't trust this data too much yet 18:10:39 hug: what was our prefered maximum for DebConf (i.e. not fully packing communal rooms)? 18:10:43 so I'd expect this number to go up a bit as the sponsorship decisions have only been announced yesterday. 18:10:54 gwolf: 60 sounds like a good number 18:11:07 right. I think we have to announce a reconfirmation extension IMO... 18:11:16 anything else regarding finances? 18:11:39 nope 18:11:48 just one 18:11:55 #info finances look good, we should not be too enthusiastic with new expenses but currently we are on the surplus side. 18:12:38 I'll pay the reusable glasses for the bar 18:12:53 … and we could do with more attendees. 18:12:54 got an order from the bar team 18:13:15 ok, I think that's fine 18:13:24 #topic Teams roundtable - registration 18:13:48 registration team, quick summary from you, anything that needs wider discussion? 18:14:03 despite being slighlty late for the sponsoring reconfirmation, afaik all of travel, food+accom and DebCamp have been decided upon. 18:14:11 gwolf: extension beyond 7 July, you mean? 18:14:22 harmoney: oh, that sounds better. Was it sent already then? 18:14:27 I thought it was for yesterday :) 18:14:28 4 requests for DebCamp are pending (positive) communication. 18:14:34 sorry for the noise then 18:14:41 registration: we sent two reminders about registration, we are locking if there are disabled people (it seems not) 18:14:50 cate: Did reconfirmation extension reminder get sent? 18:14:53 gwolf: it was not sent publicly, but in the private reminders. 18:14:58 42 have not reconfirmed yet but still attend=yes 18:15:03 harmoney: at least I receive a mail about the extension. 18:15:09 OdyX: perfect. 18:15:15 gaudenz: I did as well. vorlon did not. 18:15:16 harmoney: no, it was on the status mail, and IMHO it is good so (only sponsored people really need an extension) 18:15:43 #action cate to check why vorlon and probably others did not recieve the status mail 18:16:01 cate: unless this is already sorted 18:16:14 vorlon had conflicting information (a warning of the non-confirmed people had still 30 June) 18:16:33 gaudenz: I think vorlon didn't get one because he's professional/corporate - I'm not sure what happened with h01ger. 18:16:44 and for other non-sponsored people, we changed only the date, without a real announcement 18:16:57 ok so this is already sorted out? Otherwise I suggest to talk about the details after the meeting. 18:17:01 harmoney: h01ger requested sponsorship late AIUI and was left out of the mailing 18:17:04 cate: Can we send out the reconfirmation extension to people who have not reconfirmed? 18:17:05 (or something like that) 18:17:12 just checked, only around 15 are sponsored of those who didn't reconfirm yet 18:17:13 regardless of sponsorship state? 18:17:18 harmoney: yes 18:17:23 cate: Sweet! 18:17:33 anything else for the whole team from registration? 18:17:46 I think I'm good. 18:17:49 #topic Team roundtable - Bursaries 18:17:51 gaudenz: the rest have proper topic in agenda 18:18:24 Ok... This was (finally!) a couple of weeks with intense work 18:18:27 ah, mixed them up. 18:18:30 all but very few requests have been handled afaik, only 3 or 4 are still pending some clarification. 18:18:37 We have handled mostly everything 18:18:43 exactly. There are a couple of corner cases. 18:18:54 which still need a bit more debating 18:19:01 and most food/accomodation request have been granted 18:19:24 #action bursaries team to sort out the remaining few cases of food/accomodation sponsorship still open 18:19:38 anything else from bursaries? 18:19:49 AFAIK we are well within our budget. 18:19:50 A little #action item 18:19:51 few sponsored people cancelled attendence, but I think this is on the normal percents 18:20:00 gaudenz: Is there a general protocol for handling late people emailing registration@? 18:20:10 gaudenz: Or should all requests be forwarded on to bursaries? 18:20:13 #action Bursaries should produce a report of expected total outcome 18:20:14 not that I know of 18:20:21 #action (both for travel and for food+accom) 18:20:48 and a list for accounting of travel sponsored people 18:20:50 (of course, it should be matched with reality - i.e. some people who were approved for travel have cancelled their attendance) 18:20:53 harmoney: To me it seems fine to just forward mails that concern sponsorship to bursaries. 18:21:01 gaudenz: Done and done. 18:21:02 one question: should gsoc students be paid from the newbies budget? 18:21:11 Ideally also "bounce" the original mail 18:21:58 OdyX: I've been forwarding the original mail so I can CC registration@ on it as well (so bursaries doesn't get 10 bounces by well-meaning registration@ people). Would people prefer it just be bounced? 18:22:06 hug: I don't think so, but then nobody handled the newbies initiative so far and I'm not sure if someone is in charge. 18:22:31 so is anyone still doing the newbies initiative? 18:22:37 harmoney: normal forward or reply is good, the important thing is that the whole context is preserved. 18:22:48 harmoney: I (personally) would appreciate bounce + answer to both registration@ + bursaries@ with an explanation. 18:22:49 I think we all agreed it was nice to have... but nobody picked it up this time 18:23:00 and it's way too late now. 18:23:04 so as long as it has no specific money attached to it, we can basically forget about it 18:23:07 so we can drop this I guess 18:23:12 if it has, well, it can be assigned to the GSoC guys 18:23:19 it's a shame, but well… 18:23:20 I think we funded several newbies 18:23:28 yes the DPL approved 20k from Debian for newbies. 18:23:29 bremner: Right. Not via a specific fund. 18:23:38 ack 18:23:55 in any case, in our reports-to-be we could include that 18:24:06 we should have announced it more widely though. 18:24:21 IMO funding GSOC with this sounds fine. 18:24:43 But if we have enough money without we can also just give it back to Debian. 18:24:52 anything else from bursaries? 18:25:03 * gwolf shuts up. 18:25:13 #topic Team roundtable - Talks 18:25:29 tiago: ? or who else want's to say something? 18:25:31 Ok - The guy really in charge here is tiago 18:25:40 But I understand he is not available for the meeting 18:25:51 But anyway - The talks are rated+scheduled+organized into tracks 18:26:07 #info thanks to tiago for working hard on talk selection and a first preliminary schedule! 18:26:10 He requested me some information which I intend to work on later this evening to contact back the speakers 18:26:24 (we have not yet notified them of talk acceptance) 18:26:41 #action talk team to notify speakers of talk acceptance 18:26:47 any timeframe for this? 18:26:49 first talk is sunday 11 at 10h00, we will have parallel sessions (DebConf and DebianDay) on Friday 18:26:50 He scheduled mainly using the two video-covered rooms, plus there are few sessions set one non-video-covered room 18:26:58 there's the talk room naming issue though, which was only communicated in private. 18:27:09 gaudenz: today GMT-5 18:27:14 gaudenz: tomorrow if you want to play safe :) 18:27:17 OdyX: this is later on the agenda 18:27:20 but should be today. 18:27:24 gwolf: great 18:27:39 #action mail to speaker to be sent by tomorrow latest 18:27:54 anything else from the talks team? 18:28:10 gaudenz: aye, sory. 18:28:18 #topic Team roundtable - Network 18:28:20 E-mail to contact person at ISP sent out today. 18:28:20 I think that's it. 18:28:27 hug, XTaran: go 18:28:58 who should send the mails? 18:29:09 (that's all so far for today) 18:29:16 gaudenz: I think that's the status for now. XTaran sent mail, waiting for reply 18:29:34 ok 18:29:49 Do you need help? Anyway other can help you atm? 18:30:06 gaudenz: I can answer that after the local visit 18:30:15 gaudenz: And after an reply. 18:30:28 #info network team will know more after the local visit on Monday 8th 18:30:36 #topic Talk / BoF rooms, Bar, Hacklabs - floor planning 18:30:51 any comments on the proposal? 18:31:04 I added the 2nd BoF room which got lost in translation. 18:31:08 gaudenz: you mention 2 BoF rooms, but you list only one 18:31:19 cate: reload the agenda 18:31:44 and I think we must label one hacklab as "silent" 18:31:49 ok, it should be added to the schedule 18:31:50 the second talk room will comfortably have space for 50 people is that enough? 18:31:51 the rest seems sensible 18:31:58 I *think* that it might be a bit too much 18:32:18 as splitting into four parallel sessions makes it way more likely for somebody to miss a talk because there's another interesting one 18:32:29 gwolf: the very informal meeting/talks 18:32:30 But if there is enough demand and you talked it over... I don't know 18:32:37 gwolf: so only 1 bof room? 18:32:54 cate: Right. So it should not even be scheduled? Or marked as a "Very-BoF room"? 18:33:07 Last year we used hacklab 2 for some debconf related (and non scheduled) talks 18:33:09 gaudenz: we have never had four simultaneous spaces since DC7 IIRC 18:33:12 I'm fine with only 1 bof room or just don't schedule anything in the 2nd room and leave it for in promptu sessions. 18:33:17 cate: yes, not scheduled. 18:33:26 gwolf: IMHO not scheduled, but for attendees needs 18:33:27 I agree to leave an empty, dedicated space 18:33:30 as long as "somewhere else" allows parallel scheduling. 18:33:31 right. 18:33:45 gaudenz: Having a room available for last-minute schedulings is a splendid idea. 18:34:14 #decision don't schedule anything in bof room 2 until the start of the conference. This is for in promptu sessions. 18:34:42 next topic? 18:35:28 Dishwashing and Cleaning 18:35:41 #agreed room proposal as in the agenda 18:35:48 #topic Dishwashing and Cleaning 18:35:55 I think we should pay someone, we have the money and budget for it 18:36:01 at least for DebConf 18:36:20 #agreed don't schedule anything in bof room 2 until the start of the conference. This is for in promptu sessions. 18:36:25 do Le Camp offer the option of washing? 18:36:30 * XTaran agrees with hug. 18:36:39 hug: Agreed. Relying on volunteers for cleaning leads to a potential of only a few shouldering the work and ending up burned out and bitter. 18:36:42 I don't like having a volunteer-based dishwashing+cleaning... 18:36:47 * Y_Plentyn agrees at least for cleaning 18:36:49 We can hire people to do this work. 18:36:57 heiserhorn: I did only ask about cleaning: they don't offer cleaning and do not have a preferred provider 18:37:01 It is a job we would be losing hacking time with. 18:37:06 I think for cleaning we all agree. 18:37:25 gaudenz: I consider dishwashing as cleaning. 18:37:26 gaudenz: Especially for the final cleaning on the last day 18:37:37 harmoney: +1 18:37:46 gaudenz: Hire someone to... CLEAN ALL THE THINGS!!! 18:37:52 XTaran: for all "cleaning" 18:37:57 XTaran: final cleaning is done by lecamp (-stuff that needs to be done by us or done by 3rd party) 18:38:07 I think "cleaning" (as in "showers, bathrooms, floors, etc) is not debated. 18:38:08 Ok 18:38:10 harmoney: you don't have to scream at me, I was not the one to bring this up again. 18:38:13 * harmoney channels her inner Allie Brosch. 18:38:19 I'm just the messenger here 18:38:34 why is dishwashing any different than brooming? 18:38:35 Huh. And here I thought everyone knew that comic. My bad. I wasn't screaming. 18:38:46 gwolf: because it needs a big parallelisation 18:39:00 harmoney: can we stay on-topic ? 18:39:02 harmoney: It's ok, just wanted to make clear that this is not about me. 18:39:09 and 3 times per day 18:39:35 gwolf: you need 5 persons for 45 minutes max IMHO, 3 times a day. 18:39:50 it take probably 30-45 min per meal 18:39:53 OdyX: and that's an even better reason for it to be made outside 18:40:04 how many people are we hiring to do general cleaning? 18:40:11 gwolf: might be; but it's a very expensive thing to get done externally IMHO. 18:40:19 IMO if we find someone to do the dishwashing for hire that's the best option. I'm just not sure how to tackle that. 18:40:35 gwolf: as I wrote by mail: if every attendee considers doing it once during his stay, we have it all covered. 18:40:44 If it takes 5*3*45 minutes a day, it's over 11 DebConf-man-hours 18:41:03 OdyX: as discussed on the ML: dishwashing can only be done by us if we know for sure who'd do it. 18:41:08 we probably should find a student needing money for a summer job 18:41:11 OdyX: That's not realistic. 18:41:28 so think as if we were sponsoring two people full-time to wash dishes 18:41:30 and I wouldn't waste time of DebConf attendees for dishwashing 18:41:45 gwolf: hiring people would cost us quite a lot too, IMHO. 18:41:49 I agree with harmoney, if it's to be done by volunteers we need a team of many (maybe 20 persons), but not everyone once. 18:41:55 this is just inefficient. 18:41:58 I really feel it's a luxury expense that we can reasonably avoid. 18:42:18 We could ask the cleaning company about a quote. 18:42:23 * gwolf disagrees but shuts up 18:42:32 gwolf: roughly 400 CHF a day, at least. 18:42:33 OdyX: I completely disagree. I think dishwashing should be expected with any catering services. As it's not in our case, it's something we need to have covered. 18:42:36 cate: I'd find it necessary to even consider asking people to volunteer for that. 18:42:55 I do not expect everybody to volunteer "at least once" to do dishes. 18:43:11 FWIW I worked dishwashing for a couple of months some lifetimes ago. It SUCKS. 18:43:22 gwolf, hug, harmoney: +1 each 18:43:28 gwolf: we're not talking about "for a couple of months", right ? 18:43:39 OdyX: right. But I don't expect everybody to volunteer 18:43:46 IMHO we could do it for break-fast, and debcamp, but I think it will be difficult to find volunteers, but we can try 18:43:47 And I don't want organizers to volunteer five times instead 18:43:54 We have better uses for your time. 18:44:07 * OdyX washed dishes during DC12. So meh. 18:44:08 I'm sorry if this bugs people, but I won't be volunteering to wash dishes. 18:44:21 I think a reasonable solution would be to hire someone for DebConf. 18:44:22 * XTaran neither. Not this time. 18:44:25 bremner: You're not alone. 18:44:32 OdyX: Again, some people will. Some people won't 18:44:39 I don't expect most of the attendees to volunteer 18:44:42 gwolf: I get it, no problem. 18:44:45 gaudenz: +1. I don't consider this a luxury. I consider it part of catering. 18:44:45 OdyX: And I don't want *you* to. 18:44:58 I don't think we want attendees to wash dishes. If there is any way we can afford to hire people we should. 18:45:01 During DebCamp the costs per attendee are much more, because it's probably not linear. 18:45:02 (and it is not a generic you. OdyX has better things to do than to wash dishes every day) 18:45:35 I'm not sure we can get a quote for that. If we don't I'm willing to get hired by DebConf to do it with friends, for good money. 18:45:35 So who is up to find someone to do it during DebConf for hire? 18:45:42 what budget do we put for that ? 18:45:45 400 CHF / day ? 18:45:59 gaudenz: Is it possible the people we hire for general cleaning could do this, too? 18:46:02 OdyX: we have a cleaning and dishwashing budget already. 18:46:11 They'll already be on site daily, so, travel is already there for them, right? 18:46:12 gaudenz: which is ? 18:46:20 * tiago arrived and reading backlog 18:46:21 harmoney: we have to ask? rafw is tasked with organizing the general cleaning. 18:46:30 well how many personhours a day? How many bodies and how many hours? 18:46:35 we have 2persons full time 18:46:42 gaudenz: I think that's the way to go - we'll already have them there, that's probably the best way to keep cleaning costs down. 18:46:44 for DebConf 18:46:49 OdyX: 5'600 CHF 18:46:53 8hxCHF35 18:47:07 and for DebCamp: 1p CHF35x8 18:48:01 800 CHF / day for cleaning + dishwashing. I'd be _very_ surprised if we found someone. 18:48:12 ** agreed: ask the general cleaning company about a quote for dishwashing for DebConf, during DebCamp it can be organized by volunteers. does this sound right? 18:48:31 yes, I think. 18:48:34 gaudenz: sounds right 18:48:34 s/can/could/ 18:48:34 it does reflect the consensus, and I'll happily live with it. 18:48:37 gaudenz: I think the latter is not agreed. 18:48:54 gaudenz: s/can/may/ perhaps 18:48:54 #agreed: ask the general cleaning company about a quote for dishwashing for DebConf, during DebCamp it can be organized by volunteers. Quotes should be ready for the next team meeting so we can decide. 18:49:22 #topic T-shirts 18:49:24 instead of using a commercial company we could also pay students 18:49:30 as additional helpers 18:49:35 hug: are you going to ask students? 18:49:40 yes, dishwashing don't need such professional services 18:49:40 nope :) 18:49:53 in exchange for free debconf for example 18:49:59 #topic organization of dishwashing - find people for hire 18:50:07 i proposede the same thing 18:50:18 no, it is unfeasible 18:50:21 hug: that was my intention with asking on free software / lug lists for volunteers. 18:50:35 dishwashing means no time to attend meetings and beer parties 18:50:52 At least after mealtimes anyway. 18:51:01 I'm fine with asking students, and I think we could put an announce on some student job message board, but we need someone to actually do it NOW 18:51:18 gaudenz: +1 18:51:31 I don't think that has a chance to work but if someone wants to try. 18:51:42 So who has free capacity to do that? 18:51:51 fallback is always professional service 18:51:51 It can be part of the proposal searching. 18:52:02 we should ask in the Neuchatel area 18:52:05 * gwolf has to leave soon... 18:52:10 But, I still think our best bet is to talk to the people who are already going to be there (cleaning the restrooms). 18:52:10 hug: we don't have that fallback yet. 18:52:20 harmoney: which we don't have either. 18:52:21 Could we please fast-forward the t-shirt part for which I'm required? 18:52:30 ok 18:52:35 #topic T-shirts 18:52:39 :-D 18:52:40 OdyX: so I'd suggest we grant an additonal 5k to make sure we have enough money 18:52:45 to pay them 18:52:59 hug: please move that to after the meeting. 18:53:00 gwolf: what are the deadline for t-shirts? 18:53:06 cate: IIRC it was July 15 18:53:10 how to pay it? Color conditions? 18:53:13 I'm on the design; collected the sponsor logos and am working on the general design right now. 18:53:20 pay it via money transfer 18:53:23 aim is three colours. 18:53:30 do we have any other quotes? A bosnian company was mentioned once 18:53:37 color conditions, three solid colours on the front, one solid color on the back 18:53:47 gwolf: one one the back ? okay. 18:54:18 OdyX: that's what we requested, and what the mail says 18:54:23 gwolf: T shirt are monocrome or with colored borders? 18:54:34 cate: I don't know 18:54:37 moray mentioned a bosnian company but there was no more info about it, so we should go ahead with the mexican company 18:54:40 gwolf: okay. 18:55:02 I guess that if we want colored borders it would cost extra 18:55:04 hug: agreed if nobody has more info about this we should go with the mexican offer. 18:55:07 but it has to be asked to the printer 18:55:53 FWIW the information I have is what I sent at 20130604215840.GF70386@gwolf.org (June 4) 18:56:13 Delivery time: 15 working days after receiving the advance payment and the design. 18:56:24 #agreed T-shirts will be printed in Mexico 18:56:32 cool 18:56:42 If this quote is right for you, I need the designs and advance payment to be sent at most by July 15, so the results can be delivered before August 11. 18:56:47 so, deadline is NOW 18:57:00 #action OdyX to prepare designs for discussion on the mailing list soon. 18:57:23 hug: I think the payment can be made already. 18:57:24 (please discuss swiftly :) ) 18:57:37 do we have the numbers? 18:57:40 do we agree that we can already pay before we have the final design? 18:57:49 I see no reason not to 18:57:52 gwolf: please send me the invoice then 18:57:58 maybe wait until next sunday (reconfirmation deadline) 18:58:05 for the number of t-shirt, I think we can propose the numbers on mailing list 18:58:08 and get some in addition for late paid registrations. 18:58:19 FWIW I will ask her how would it change if ringer shirt is requested 18:58:22 who is the expert on t-shirt "counting" ? 18:58:25 cate: can you summarize the numbers we need? 18:58:28 I must get back to work. I'll be lurking. 18:58:51 hug: Of course. We need only the concept and the amount, right? 18:59:01 Can the amount be in USD / EUR? 18:59:10 ...And the destination bank account 18:59:11 http://whiteboard.debian.net/dc13-stats.wb 18:59:14 on the bottom IIRC 18:59:26 gwolf: beter in mexican pesos if I have to pay it to mexico 18:59:33 perfect then. 18:59:36 Now /me has to flee 18:59:48 bye 18:59:51 o/ thanks! 19:00:04 #action gwolf to get us an invoice for the t-shirts, cate to propose the numbers. 19:00:12 bye gwolf 19:00:21 anything else regarding t-shirts? 19:00:43 colours? 19:00:53 when will there be a shirt like the HP debconf one again? ;) 19:01:10 RichiH: AFAIK no 19:01:13 nattie: do you really want to discuss colours with the team? 19:01:25 IMO we should delegate this to the designer(s) 19:01:29 cate: which is a real pity as i would buy that in a heartbeat 19:01:41 I want a pink t-shirt with electric green "poi" 19:02:01 I propose a short break of 5 min, ok? 19:02:12 cate: beware, you'll need to wear it if I make it for you. 19:02:21 OdyX: *g* 19:02:24 #topic break until 21:08 19:02:28 OdyX: on debconf yes, outside... hmmm 19:02:35 cate: For the organizer shirts? That'd be AWESOME. :D 19:03:32 * XTaran suggests neon-coloured t-shirts for staff and video team. :) 19:04:03 for organized yes, people see the FD to be blamed 19:07:24 #topic Volunteers 19:07:26 XTaran: that works well for fosdem 19:07:59 If dishwashing is done by external people, this is a bit less urgent 19:08:10 for the bar 19:08:32 we will ned volunteers 19:08:35 well, I think we'd better find a company than students, otherwise we'd have to pay volunteers for fairness for other tasks. 19:08:36 My proposal is to write to local lugs and other lists in .ch and tell them that we need volunteers and that people can attend for free in exchange of ~4h volunteering per day. 19:09:09 Do people agree with this? I don't know how this has been done in the past. 19:09:36 Fine for me. 19:09:41 ok 19:09:44 Which areas do need volunteers? 19:09:53 That's AFAIK how most CCC events work. 19:09:54 Bar, front-desk?, ...? 19:10:11 it sounds good 19:10:16 OdyX: we shouldn't pay them. give them free food/accom 19:10:26 one doesn't need to be full time on cleaning... 19:10:37