18:04:53 #startmeeting DebConf12 global team meeting 18:04:53 Meeting started Wed Mar 28 18:04:53 2012 UTC. The chair is moray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:04:53 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:05:01 MeetBot: pingall meeting 18:05:01 meeting 18:05:01 AbsintheSyringe aliceinwire allison alucardn2 amaya AndrewLee azeem bdale beraldo_ bgupta blarson brother- bubulle_ Caroll cate Clint cpt_nemo dam darst dkg edrz elsimio faw FBI fil Ganneff gaudenz gismo gregoa Guest8027 gwolf h01ger Hydroxide jeremyb jimbodoors 18:05:01 Kaare karora kevinmoilar leogg lilix lucas MadameZou madduck marga maxy MeetBot moray msantana n0rman nattie nomada nomadium OdyX paravoid paulproteus rmayorga schultmc schultmc_ sgran simonft Sledge taffit tatotat tiago tiago- Tincho tokkee xamanu XTaran 18:05:01 meeting 18:05:08 #topic Venue 18:05:15 hola! 18:05:34 Before we start we recommend you to open up the following sources of information: 18:05:39 hola! 18:05:44 * budget-estimate.ods in the debconf-data repository. 18:05:54 * Wikipage about pros and cons of both venues: http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/VenueMatrix 18:06:14 hi 18:06:21 we're going to start by taking a look at the CP venue 18:06:45 We had a meeting with the staff at the CP hotel. They gave us a 20% discount that will be counted as sponsorship (Gold level) 18:07:02 They told us we need to make a reservation/block rooms mid-April 18:07:23 We have an estimated budget of USD177K using almost exclusively the CP hotel and convention center and USD155K with the hacklabs at the MT hotel 18:07:50 Please beware that these costs includes everything (accommodation, venue, food, travel sponsorship, connectivity and other costs) 18:08:06 We also had a very productive meeting with the MT hotel 18:08:17 and 79k USD and 47k USD without _any_ housing+travel sponsoring 18:08:28 h01ger, that's right 18:08:33 the MT hotel is close to which venue? 18:08:42 o/ 18:08:45 h01ger, close to CP venue 18:09:01 The MT hotel is working on minor accessibility issues they have (ramp at the front entrance, levels at the pool/dining area) 18:09:17 leogg, do you have an estimate how much sponsorship money we collected so far? 18:09:20 If we choose MT, we'll have the whole hotel fully at our disposal, including any special needs we might have (as a side note, owner is a geek and Linux user, so that's a plus for us) 18:09:32 h01ger, n0rman should know 18:09:40 travel sponsorship is included in this 177K/155K? How much travel sponsorship? 18:09:51 gwolf, 40K USD 18:09:54 leogg, we wont choose MT. we will choose UCA or CP. (right?) 18:10:05 (IMO we *need* housing, but we offer travel sponsorship as much as we can... So I'd rather divide them) 18:10:10 h01ger, MT is only for accomodation 18:10:32 h01ger, and additional hack spaces (if it's needed) 18:10:43 * h01ger thinks these budgets have also several small things missing, which i think might add to 10k. but thats for both venues. and just saying. i shouldnt say it but add what i have in mind to the spreadsheet 18:10:52 if i had a quiet minute to have mind ;M) 18:11:05 leogg, so MT would work for UCA too? 18:11:15 cause: h01ger, close to CP venue 18:11:21 h01ger, if we use MT for UCA we'll need buses 18:11:36 h01ger, MT is ~3km away from UCA 18:11:43 ic, ok 18:11:51 through "non-walking area" :) 18:11:52 h01ger, and 300mts. away from CP 18:11:59 moray, that's right 18:12:15 the 300m is already a bit much in the "hacklabs in MT, talks in CP" proposal 18:12:17 we'll absolutely need buses if we choose MT for UCA 18:12:24 (almost every time I read MT and CP other things come to my mind :-/ But well, that's my mind working strangely) 18:12:34 moray, yep, that's true 18:12:46 We *have* had venues with >300m between auditoriums and hacklabs, but yes, people always complained about it 18:12:49 honestly, when i looked at the venue matrix for the first time i thought: "so what. we dont have the money for CP, so IMO there is hardly anything to decide. we *need* to take the cheaper option and hope to get as much money as we can and not take from debian 18:12:50 MT=Mansión Teodolinda, CP=Crowne Plaza 18:13:11 leogg: right. Not Muñoz Torrero nor Campus Party :) 18:13:14 deciding CP now, IMO would mean to decide to take lots of money from debian. which IMO we cannot just decide 18:13:28 h01ger, I'll go on with the UCA venue so we can compare later, if that's ok? 18:13:29 h01ger: right. there is no "MT, talks nearby but not CP" option 18:13:42 yup, we'll be quiet, say when you want input again :) 18:13:51 and on the MT point: if we need busses and there are 3 other hotels close by: why choose MT then... 18:13:52 :) 18:13:53 moray: but there is a "sleep at MT; everything elsewhere" 18:13:59 leogg, sure 18:14:05 so, about UCA... 18:14:08 (which I would not prefer) 18:14:09 so, UCA. 18:14:18 We had a couple of meetings with the vice-dean, members of the Faculty of Science, Technology and Environment and with the administrative vice-dean 18:14:29 The University authorities are very excited to work with us and confirmed their full support for the event 18:14:40 awesome. 18:14:44 They will rent us three conference rooms for talks, one room for hacklabs and a small space for us to eat - http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/Venue/UCA#Rooms 18:15:03 UCA has to charge us, because of expenses for electricity and lack of possible income through renting during these two weeks, but they give us 70% discount that would be counted as sponsorship (Platinum level) 18:15:22 One important thing is that we'll have full access to the facilities 24/7 18:15:44 We have to estimated budgets for the UCA venue: USD157K using the hotels around UCA and USD144K making extensive use of the MT hotel (3kms. away) - that means that we have to rent buses.We are more flexible with the food at UCA, because we could organize it completely ourselves. At the end it is a lot more work. But it is possible to get the price down (see alternative food option in the budget estimation), we guess the cheapest option coul 18:15:45 d get down to 138K or 125K (using MT for hacklabs). 18:15:47 how small is the "small place to eat"? Do you think logistics will work out fine with it? 18:16:12 gwolf, very small... it will be difficult, but we have time to see other options 18:16:19 This budget is again including travel sponsorship? (so I deduce 40K for my inner calculations?) 18:16:20 #info for dc13: dont offer venue-discounts as sponsorhip. or at least this should be discussed first. (and i accept things as they are for dc12) 18:16:34 gwolf, that's right 18:16:35 h01ger: right 18:16:44 Most crucial problem with the UCA is the non-existing accessible bathroom. We'd have to invent something or last (and possible) option is the Seminole hotel (300mts away). 18:17:03 #info Eating spaces provided by UCA are very small and will be difficult, but we can investigate on other options 18:17:16 yes, I do feel that as a VERY bad issue 18:17:26 gwolf, indeed 18:17:27 (bathroom) 18:17:46 housing is quite very expensive.. 18:17:55 gwolf: still, the realistic alternative has hacklabs 300m away instead 18:18:02 (for everyone) 18:18:06 leogg: Given we are 3Km away, i'd completely drop using MT for hacklabs if we are at UCA 18:18:11 h01ger, the UCA area is expensive 18:18:16 * h01ger nods gwolf 18:18:19 moray: the realistic alternative if we are at CP, that is 18:18:22 gwolf: I don't think MT-hacklabs + UCA is propose 18:18:23 +d 18:18:27 (dropping MT hacklabs for UCA) 18:18:36 moray: leogg mentioned it'd be 125K 18:18:54 ah yes, they're giving even more options again :) 18:18:59 :) 18:19:08 so, it seems we're down to two options? the cheaper CP option and the expensive UCA option? 18:19:14 leogg, its just soo strange that the debconf in the poorest country is budget-estimated atm as the most expensive.. 18:19:17 leogg: if there's something we can learn from Ubuntu is that users like not having options. So don't give us more options ;-) 18:19:20 (how about MT for hacklabs, Banja Luka for sleeping, and Mexico DF for talks?) 18:19:41 h01ger, we don't have much infrastructure for this kind of events... so it's expensive 18:19:43 moray: I think we have wireless connectivity around the tree now in Mexico, so it's doable 18:19:49 leogg, why do you think CP is cheaper? i see different numbers in the budget.. 18:19:50 gwolf, :) 18:19:59 gwolf, \o/ 18:20:07 h01ger, I meant the cheaper CP option 18:20:19 leogg, yes, why? budget says different 18:20:30 h01ger: the cheaper option from the two CP proposals 18:20:45 ah 18:20:50 h01ger, I'm not saying it's cheaper than UCA, I'm saying that the best option is proposal 2 18:21:07 /methinks that if we are to give full and thick sponsor status to a random entity that will get a sh!tload of money from us, I'd much prefer it to be a university and not a transnational hotel company 18:21:18 leogg, that is 80k without housing or travel? 18:21:22 or which 2nd option? 18:21:27 me looking at the spreadsheet again 18:21:39 h01ger, 75K 18:21:44 wasn't the difference between the two CP options having the hacklabs at MT or in CP? 18:21:45 sorry 18:21:52 me has !wide-screen display 18:22:11 gwolf: yes 18:22:12 gwolf, and using MT more extensively for accomodation 18:22:25 leogg, why do you think its better? 18:22:32 and where do you think will the money come from? 18:22:57 h01ger, I don't think it's a better option than UCA 18:23:15 h01ger, I think that of both CP proposals, the cheaper one is best 18:23:20 ah 18:23:22 because we have no mone 18:23:23 y 18:23:26 yeah 18:23:26 :) 18:23:27 I'll try to cut this a bit shorter 18:23:28 leogg: are you waiting to give more information still? 18:23:31 barring the problem with the bathroom 18:23:39 moray, no.. I'm done :) 18:23:42 right 18:23:43 is there any reason we might prefer having DC at CP? 18:23:48 * h01ger thinks bathroom in the hotel is more important than in the venue... 18:23:52 leogg: just checking before we rule things out 18:23:53 way more. 18:23:55 AIUI right now UCA is cheaper and nicer 18:23:58 gwolf, accesibility? 18:24:11 h01ger: oh definitely, though we should try to find a solution nearer, obviously 18:24:11 leogg: yes, I wrote that :) 18:24:14 gwolf, but UCA is indeed nicer and cheaper 18:24:17 :) 18:24:22 leogg: our only problem with accessibility right now is the bathroom, right? 18:24:43 can anyone give an argument for one of the options *except* "UCA and nearby hotels"? 18:25:01 And... I'll be honest with this: For ~US$30K difference, and if there is no other way out, I'm... almost willing to accept we'll send people 300m away for the bathroom 18:25:02 gwolf, that's right 18:25:03 MT sounds good, but there's no sane MT-including option that I can see 18:25:20 Right, I think we should basically be discussing UCA+MT or UCA+3hotels 18:25:37 gwolf, I agree 18:25:40 I really don't think buses will work 18:25:47 Unless anybody contradicts me, bringing up again CP just means noise 18:26:12 right - buses sound like a potential problem, very easy to turn into a real one 18:26:13 gwolf: right, I'm happy if someone wants to argue for it, but if no one wants it there's no point continuing to consider it in this meeting 18:26:18 (CP) 18:26:47 even in the best case, buses will annoy attendees 18:26:52 * h01ger nods gwolf 18:27:04 moray: I agree. Buses would make everything uncomfortable. And the price w/o housing is the same in both options. If people would have to pay for their hotel, i think, they would prefer one of the nearer hotels. 18:27:06 I'm for scrapping CP and moving on 18:27:09 (and probably lead to walking through the non-walking area when they don't turn up) 18:27:11 #info So it is UCA, scraping CP. 18:27:42 #chair gwolf 18:27:42 Current chairs: gwolf moray 18:27:45 #chair h01ger 18:27:45 Current chairs: gwolf h01ger moray 18:27:56 if CP gave us the venue for free.... ;) 18:28:05 #chair leogg 18:28:05 Current chairs: gwolf h01ger leogg moray 18:28:12 moray, taxis are cheap here... USD1-1.50 to UCA from MT... that could be an option 18:28:15 #info The discussion is now between UCA+MT (needing buses) or UCA+3hotels (more expensive) 18:28:33 leogg: we know from the past that people strongly prefer having things close together 18:28:48 leogg: 300 people, sharing taxis between (say) 3, means 100 trips to get to UCA. 100 trips back 18:28:53 I think people will be disappointed to see buses suggested, and complain loudly at the first problem 18:28:56 moray, then MT is not an option 18:29:00 That is, 200 * US$1.5 every day 18:29:18 gwolf, buses + taxis? 18:29:19 gwolf: I think the local taxi prices are normally per person 18:29:25 not terrible money, but too much. And I don't know if all of Managua's taxis will be available for us 18:29:32 yes, per person 18:29:33 moray: that's not usual in this continent 18:29:48 gwolf: right, but your sum wasn't that way :) 18:29:48 oh, so that's rather US$600 per day for transport 18:30:05 we have a local taxi company not far from MT 18:30:09 So, for ~US$1200 we could buy an old van and drive them ourselves \o/ 18:30:14 gwolf: renting buses will be a lot cheaper 18:30:35 as leogg said: buses + taxis 18:30:38 right. for trips at strange times of day, people would probably take taxis 18:30:43 as we can't run buses very 2 minutes 18:30:48 right 18:30:48 xamanu: might be, but I also think buses is not a good option 18:30:58 but, it's not going to be a good option any way round 18:31:01 xamanu: say, we have a set of buses at 10AM 18:31:10 so, maybe they will leave mostly-empty given the time 18:31:22 so we scale them down and get 2 buses instead of 5 18:31:25 at some point you will get a rush of people wanting to go 18:31:31 and next day they are over-full 18:31:34 but most of the day no one 18:31:41 and yes, different times each day 18:31:44 depending on talk content etc. 18:31:45 I think it mixes in logistics we want to avoid 18:31:56 (and on how much beer the night before) 18:32:07 buses are not a great option, but we need to see if it's worth saving us ~13K with that option 18:32:11 moray: (and you have not tasted Nicaraguan rum...) 18:32:38 leogg: how do you think renting buses for 300 people at different times during the day cost us for just one week? 18:32:43 gwolf, yes... buses will require additional work from local team 18:33:00 (or two even0 18:33:01 ) 18:33:12 gwolf, around USD50-75 per day/bus 18:33:23 how many runs are you considering in that figure? 18:33:40 half an hour between 8am-10pm 18:33:41 gwolf, using the bus during 12 hours 18:33:48 including gas? 18:33:59 running a bus for 12 hours requires quite a bit of gas 18:34:18 I guess we'd need two buses at least, right? 18:34:29 and when conference starts and ends (8am-10am; 5:30pm to 9pm) we could have more buses available (when they are full with people they leave) 18:34:52 gwolf: two from MT and one big yellow school bus maybe 18:34:58 gwolf, yes... including gas if we use the MT buses 18:35:07 and paying the driver 18:35:30 but, imagine on the first days everyone wants to go for the earliest talk 18:35:38 you will need a *lot* of buses, or a long period to transport them 18:35:42 well, keeping numbers simple (hopefully not too simplistic), it would be USD62.5 (midway between 50 and 75) * 2 * 14 18:35:56 US$1750 18:36:09 so staying at MT would save us ~10K 18:36:27 gwolf, the ~2K are included in the budget 18:36:35 ok 18:36:43 ...but I'm still uneasy about the uncertainty 18:37:30 for "only" 10K it sounds a lot of definite annoyance and possible disaster :/ 18:37:41 +1 18:37:51 h01ger: you are the most money-conservative 18:37:52 I'd rather sponsor fewer people and let the people present enjoy the conference more 18:37:57 ...what's your POV? 18:38:10 i agree 18:38:18 So, UCA+3 hotels it is? 18:38:25 sounds best 18:38:34 so far ;) 18:38:38 I think that's the best option for us 18:38:40 leogg, what about you? We need all the pessimists to voice :) 18:38:43 * xamanu is very happy 18:38:44 great 18:38:56 * gwolf as well 18:39:17 #info We have decided: UCA + 3hotels 18:39:19 * h01ger wonders why the bus option was considered. to save more money? 18:39:32 h01ger, yes, that was the idea 18:39:35 h01ger: staying at MT would be ~US$13K cheaper 18:39:55 * h01ger nods 18:40:40 xamanu: so, we still don't have money of course, but it seems like this option has a "degrade gracefully" behaviour 18:40:53 without a sudden change in the plan based on how much money we actually get 18:41:02 but instead we can gradually sponsor more stuff 18:41:22 right. I think it's the most reliable way. 18:41:31 * leogg nods 18:41:45 don't we have surplus from previous DebConf? 18:41:46 And we budgeted for 40K travel sponsorship - that still is a good cushion (although we should aim to cover it) 18:42:30 n0rman: it's all Debian money. we can *possibly* get some extra if we really needed it, but that's not a good thing to expect 18:42:41 moray: right 18:42:50 especially as next year will be even more expensive 18:43:04 how much money do have we so far? 18:43:30 according to files, right now we have 43K 18:43:55 n0rman, so no we dont 18:43:58 so we're not there yet 18:44:12 but already 43k. 18:44:40 and we have only three months left 18:44:44 so, the next step is to 100% confirm (and pay some deposit, if possible) on UCA? 18:45:01 moray, and hotels 18:45:10 you want to sign some documents, but it's actively useful to us if you can pay UCA something in advance 18:45:14 it makes it more concrete 18:45:44 moray, UCA didn't mention anything about paying in advance but we'll ask them 18:45:47 leogg: right. but on hotels you want to keep options open as we don't know numbers, and don't want to commit to a big payment from DebConf 18:46:18 moray: the more we wait, the less possible is to have people sticking together 18:46:27 moray, should we just block rooms now with an option to unblock them later if not needed? 18:46:44 we have to open registration soon! this way we can get more security in advance to book the hotels ASAP 18:46:51 leogg: if it's possible to do so, yes. But we don't have numbers yet 18:46:59 xamanu: I agree. We want to have registration open very soon! 18:47:19 FWIW I will be on vacation a portion of next week (Mon-Wed /methinks) 18:47:20 gwolf, right 18:47:25 So I'll try to work on it before 18:47:35 yes 18:47:43 attendees are wanting to register, and wanting the CFP 18:47:46 we all are going to be on vacation next week :) 18:47:57 we can open registration now, cant we? wasnt venue decision the blocker? 18:48:14 gwolf: can we? 18:48:23 h01ger: no, please wait a little bit 18:48:28 I want to check some Penta flags 18:48:31 h01ger: I think so, but we need to decide what accommodation options to list, for example still 18:48:38 But I think we can leave MeetBot to rest for the day :) 18:48:41 for the website we need to prepare some texts, so some day we need here 18:48:46 if we have this option, we need to know the prices for each accommodation choice 18:48:57 moray, we do have estimates 18:49:01 or, rather, a number that is bigger than the number 18:49:03 moray, I'll talk to the hotels 18:49:04 h01ger: right 18:49:05 we should ask a bit more for prefessinals 18:49:07 #info Registration should open SOON! 18:49:10 #endmeeting