18:04:03 #startmeeting DebConf12 meeting 18:04:03 Meeting started Thu Mar 22 18:04:03 2012 UTC. The chair is moray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:04:03 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:04:09 #addchair gwolf 18:04:26 moray: thanks :) 18:04:27 #topic Update from DC12 local team 18:04:50 hi all! 18:04:57 hello 18:05:17 so what's the venue news? 18:05:18 so I guess we start with the update on the venue? 18:05:25 please 18:05:32 we have been exploring the UCA venue for the last weeks, having several meetings with the university authorities 18:05:46 including the vice-dean and other vip people :) 18:06:06 the UCA is in general positive about hosting DebConf at their campus, but they can't provide us with the necessary conditions; no assured hacklabs, no full (and exclusive) access to the auditoriums (there is another event two days, two hours each) and they're charging a large sum ($16000) of money for renting the spaces 18:06:24 bummer... 18:06:27 the local team thinks that DebConf at UCA is not doable at this point and will focus on the Crowne Plaza venue 18:06:39 we have a meeting tomorrow afternoon with CP venue for a final negotiation 18:06:50 we're also scheduling several meetings with other hotels 18:06:51 hi 18:07:05 I don't know if you have any questions about this? 18:07:09 #info the local team thinks that DebConf at UCA is not doable and will focus on the Crowne Plaza. Meetings for final negotiations should happen in the next few days 18:07:11 how much are the costs for crown plaza? (just the venue part) 18:07:50 as I remember around 40000 18:08:00 but hotels are way cheaper around there than around the UCA 18:08:01 Well... I'd prefer to have it in UCA (even if just for a philosophical way), but we have to recognize reality :( 18:08:01 so how is that better than 16k? 18:08:10 the difference was about 15K 18:08:15 h01ger, right now around $42K 18:08:22 xamanu, crown is 15k cheaper? 18:08:30 h01ger: Lodging and food were way more expensive in the UCA area 18:08:37 h01ger, the hotels around UCA are more expensive 18:08:46 they are almost the same now 18:08:51 h01ger: with the 16K the UCA requests, they stand at the same price level 18:08:56 but with more complications 18:08:56 with calculations of how many people? 18:09:05 if we pay accom for less, UCA will go down, crown not 18:09:12 as much 18:09:21 h01ger, 75 first week and 150 people second week 18:09:34 OdyX, Nor: backlog is available at meetbot.debian.net, btw 18:09:57 leogg, ah, ok, thats really moderate numbers. i thought you were calculating with 300 people at least. good 18:09:58 h01ger, UCA is not doable right now 18:10:41 * h01ger understood. though i wonder if crown plaza is doable now. we dont even have 40000k yet, and if thats only for the venue... 18:10:44 h01ger, the number should go down... even more if we use the secondary hotels more extensively 18:10:56 anyway. i'm happy to move on (now) 18:11:07 h01ger, yes... the money is our biggest concern right now 18:11:30 Ok... So I think that's basically it 18:11:38 #info we stay in CP, end of story. 18:11:44 yep 18:11:48 There are two subpoints on this topic 18:11:51 first is venue decision 18:11:54 second is budget 18:11:58 Anything to comment re:budget? 18:12:01 nothing new on the budget front... we'll work on improving the budget after tomorrow's meeting with CP 18:12:08 Do you know if anyone in the group has any kind of contact with any hotel that might help? 18:12:11 now that we are with CP we have to think about paying a (not yet defined) amount of partial advanced payment pretty soon 18:12:24 gwolf, i wouldnt have put it like this... "end of story"... we dont have that much money. i'd rather said: "currently our best option seems crown plaza" 18:12:39 right, don't say "definite no" to UCA yet 18:12:40 Nor, we have a meeting on Monday with other hotels 18:12:46 ok. Anyway - Thanks a lot for the effort in finding a cheaper suitable venue (that means the Ticomo hotel, the UCA, all the trouble taken to make sure that CP is really the best option 18:12:47 ) 18:13:24 h10ger, moray: we were about to say "no, thanks" to the UCA today. would you recommend to wait a bit more with taht? 18:13:25 moray, right now, UCA is definetily not appropriate as a venue 18:13:31 sigh. i dont see a 40k venue as an optoin if we only have 40k, but me shuts up, updates svn and looks at the budget now 18:13:35 h01ger: well, AIUI, there are no other options. If we don't get a way to host DebConf in the conditions we have, there is no DC 18:13:42 (re: "best option") 18:13:55 gwolf, right. which might be better than spending 100k we dont have 18:14:05 or do debconf in bars 18:14:10 there are other options 18:14:17 i.e. Ticomo was discarded because it's not an option on many other levels 18:14:18 sorry. 18:14:24 * h01ger suggests next topic 18:14:27 ok 18:14:33 #topic registration 18:14:48 moray: It seems MeetBot does not recognize my chairing 18:15:10 hm 18:15:16 [18:05:08] #addchair gwolf 18:15:21 i think its just "chair" 18:15:25 #chair gwolf 18:15:25 Current chairs: gwolf moray 18:15:32 #topic Registration 18:15:37 that was it 18:15:48 As far as we know from gwolf, Penta is almost ready. Maybe he can tell us the actual status. 18:16:03 ok... So, the time passed... And while we know Frab could be nice, there has been no *real* work towards 18:16:12 So, we should IMO keep with Penta once again 18:16:38 I got Fitoria's offer to be a Penta helper, and will forward the mail I got yesterday to admin@dc.o to get him an account 18:16:55 I did a very basic setup for DC12 in Penta, but have been unable to test how complete it is or how broken my assumptions are :) 18:17:10 budget-estimate.ods only has UCA? 18:17:14 but (please tell no-one yet!) you can register for DC12 and report me any breakage. 18:17:27 gwolf: when do you think penta could be ready? 18:17:40 gwolf: so, penta is ready for test? :) 18:17:49 * nattie guesses she'll stay on registration team for this year 18:17:55 despite not being there (wah) 18:18:00 xamanu: I have been somewhat time-strained... So I haven't tested a bit. But please, try to register and tell me anything that does not make sense 18:18:05 nattie: :( 18:18:14 ok 18:18:21 i'll be there in spirit and via irc as much as possible 18:18:47 We urgently need the definitive final venue decision! 18:18:50 Then some more texts for the website and in the wiki have to be updated and translated. 18:19:02 We would like to set 1 of April as the date for opening registration. 18:19:03 nattie: we could set up a Virtual Nattie with the help of a bidirectional setup by the video team. 18:19:08 #info We stay with Penta 18:19:24 gwolf: a blowup doll that squeaks when prodded? 18:19:31 #info Penta is configured for DC12 *TEST* registrations - Please report any strange stuff to gwolf 18:19:48 gwolf: reports through mailing list? irc? phone? :) 18:19:51 * h01ger is sorry, but i dont see us getting 100k in sponsors money. so i see us turning down crown plaza in 1-2 months. please be prepared for that. 18:19:52 nattie: at least that's better than a squeaky doll that blows up when prodded 18:20:02 true 18:20:19 That's at least what there is from my POV. h01ger: Should we go back to point #1? 18:20:20 sorry, but why we are advancing that fast. obviously we have to talk about the venue! 18:20:35 #topic Regarding the venue... 18:20:52 can someone clarify what was meant above about hacklabs at UCA? 18:20:55 gwolf, eparse. (1st sentence) 18:21:04 moray, they won't give us hacklabs 18:21:11 how did UCA perceive daisys letter? 18:21:18 h01ger: I meant, I said all the info I had regarding registration 18:21:23 h01ger, they didn't even bother to read ir 18:21:25 so we go back to talking about the venue 18:21:26 ah 18:21:28 s/ir/it 18:21:33 leogg, ouch 18:21:48 the problem is, that the vice-dean for education is very in favour but she is travelling this week 18:21:59 budget-estimate.ods only has UCA? or is one of three mislabeled? 18:22:00 the vice-dean for admin and finance doesn't care at all 18:22:01 h01ger, the blocker is the administrative vice-dean 18:22:01 leogg: So that makes you talk on this pessimistic tone, saying it's basically not worth pursuing? 18:22:08 xamanu, ask next week? 18:22:09 h01ger, UCA and CP 18:22:25 leogg, it doesnt say so on the spreadsheet tbas 18:22:26 tabs 18:22:33 i couldnt figure which is with 18:22:35 which 18:22:40 gwolf, also we don't have full access to the auditoriums 18:22:43 h01ger: is it worth it to spend more time on a venue that doesn't provide us hacklabs? 18:22:47 and all where >130k USD, which is roughly 80k more then we have 18:22:54 i would like to see a budget for 60-80k 18:22:55 h01ger, it's the first tab 18:22:56 leogg: right, and there is another activity for two days as you said 18:23:02 gwolf, yes 18:23:16 h01ger: keep in mind that hotels are way more expensive in the UCA area 18:23:28 "there is another event two days, two hours each" is not a blocker in itself 18:23:31 leogg, ah. "UCA 1" ;-p. leogg, i'm quite happy there is this much budget esitmate already! 18:23:50 :) 18:23:52 xamanu, then find something else. stop spending money which doesnt exist 18:23:59 h01ger: the estimate for CP is in a tab 18:24:29 so 151 or 142 k 18:24:38 * h01ger shrugs 18:24:51 we dont have that much money. (and the tab is wrongly labeled) 18:24:53 xamanu: if we lack money, it's much easier to say "sorry, we can't sponsor your accommodation" than to get more money for the venue costs 18:25:02 * h01ger nods 18:25:14 i agree. we all would love to do it in the UCA. 18:25:18 moray: events are from 10 to 12 and from 18 to dontknow each 18:25:46 maybe wait until the vice-dean for education gets back, show em the letter + say "we want to do it here but need your help...." ? 18:25:47 we could discuss the thing with the hacklabs with the UCA again. but honestly we are not happy about it. 18:26:01 it's all about finding the right person 18:26:10 xamanu: what does "we are not happy about it" mean? 18:26:18 ask leogg and n0rman 18:26:42 leogg: what does "we are not happy about it" mean? 18:26:47 n0rman: what does "we are not happy about it" mean? 18:26:56 gwolf, it's going to be very difficult to do it at UCA... I feel we have too many blockers 18:27:07 xamanu, leogg, n0rman: imagine you three have to share the costs for which we dont find sponsors. now try again to reduce the costs. ;) there must be ways. a 40000 USD venue doesnt reduce costs. not paying accom saves us 40-50k instead 18:27:12 not paying food saves us 20k more 18:27:37 xamanu/leogg: I think I understand your stand... But you have to make it more explicit. If there is a way to save money, we have to pursue it, as h01ger is pointing... 18:27:57 h01ger, I agree... we've to use our imagination to reduce costs, we're fully aware of that 18:28:00 when does vice-dean for education get back? wait + meet with them 18:28:29 gwolf, right... but I'm not sure UCA = less costs 18:28:42 leogg, drop accom and there is 18:28:43 or ? 18:28:46 darst, probably in a couple od weeks 18:29:00 h01ger, that's an option 18:29:07 leogg: As i understood she comes back next week (not sure at all) 18:29:20 with the current budget, costs + income, i dont see us paying any accom _nor_ food _nor_ travel sponos 18:29:24 and do you expect CP to really be willing to negotiate their prices down sensibly? 18:29:25 soring anyway 18:29:30 If Renata is excited with making DebConf in UCA, I thinkk darst is right, we should wait to talk with Renata again, she may help us with the person who want to charge us 18:29:39 xamanu, remember holy week is near, she probably don't have time to meet us 18:30:02 exactly what n0rman said, a dean of admin/finance is just going to want to get money and costs covered 18:30:03 n0rman, but how long are we going to wait? 18:30:06 leogg: she might be willing to meet you outside of the office even... if she's interested 18:30:17 leogg: I just don0t know, I wasn't in the meeting 18:30:22 I think we are at a point that the local team is under a lot of pressure and time is running. Clear decisions ASAP would help us a lot. 18:30:38 xamanu: leogg do you the exactly date Renate will back to UCA? 18:30:39 n0rman: I agree. 18:30:51 gwolf, the thing is what xamanu just said... we need a decision 18:30:52 I think we could try to talk to her. 18:30:53 *do you know 18:31:06 I feel that we're running around in circles 18:31:13 * xamanu as well 18:31:23 I agree with all what's been said in the past few minutes 18:31:30 at columbia, we were going in circles, navigating various people who were not too interested 18:31:47 until we met Daisy, who has real power, and knew the people needed to get everything to fall into place 18:31:55 we need to make a decision and make it work... either if it's UCA or CP, or something else 18:32:08 renata could be your daisy 18:32:30 No help from the university even if we offer to give talks to students or something like that? 18:32:32 and you already have reneta excited, have their attention, which is the hardest part 18:32:36 that could be a good way for us to pay 18:32:50 darst, actually, she is... but the administrative vice-dean has the last word on the costs and availability of spaces 18:32:51 it brings a strong good name to the university 18:32:59 gwolf: the help of university is 50% discount (it would have been 32K...) 18:33:05 and... yes, as darst says, it's basically finding the right person 18:33:18 it doesn't sound like the price is the problem at UCA 18:33:25 (not the venue price, at least) 18:33:26 leogg: are you sure? I remember other people telling that the Renata is the boss in UCA 18:33:38 xamanu: and if you tell them "sorry, we cannot pay that money - Are you still interested"? 18:34:01 n0rman, she can't give us spaces they don't have 18:34:12 We did this basically yesterday and the admin vice-dean confirmed that they have to charge 18:34:13 n0rman, there are no magical hacklabs 18:34:13 even if admin and finance is over education, education can exert more weight and get exceptions made, and so on 18:34:26 gwolf: the concrete problem with UCA is the hacklabs question 18:34:35 leogg: xamanu you told me Renata was very excited having DebConf in UCA, with hey power maybe she can make it happen with the spaces we request 18:34:37 I imagine that some negotiation could happen with Renata present 18:34:45 gwolf: I don't know what's possible or not on that 18:35:06 n0rman, we can't organize an event based on promises and good will 18:35:07 debconf-team: 3 holger committed revision 1542 to debconf-team: count total: roughly 30k so far 18:35:07 debconf-team: files changed: U dc12/sponsors-table 18:35:09 moray: A university has enough spaces, I'm sure... Even if they are not 24/7 18:35:18 gwolf: right, I would have thought so 18:35:23 are there classrooms? cafeterias? hallways? debconf is very flexible about everything, it doesn't have to be "perfect" 18:35:27 ok. Hacklabs: We always considered hacklabs only beeing acceptable with air condition... 18:35:32 without there might be a possiblity 18:35:33 we cannot decide right now 18:35:37 But anyway - Do we have anything _real_ to add to this point? 18:35:42 besides mere speculation? 18:35:44 gwolf, would spaces not available 24/7 be acceptable? 18:35:51 debconf has gotten too "perfect" lately so we forget that we can be more informal 18:35:51 what we could decide now is: no UCA, no CP. but thats not helpful neither 18:36:06 we can hire our own air conditioners 18:36:07 h01ger: not at all 18:36:14 * h01ger suggests to move on, as unfortunate thats is 18:36:18 As it is now, I'd just say we have more probability to be at CP... 18:36:32 h01ger: well, it can still be discussed off meeting time 18:36:59 as it is now, I'd sadly have to say that i see basically no probability 18:37:04 gwolf, yes. lets move on 18:37:23 leogg: it's acceptable. As I have told you (plural you :) ), in the past we have had night-hacklabs, and if we just get kicked out at a reasonably late time, well... it's as good as we can get it. Maybe if it was 9AM to 11PM, it would be acceptable 18:37:27 it's better than not having a conference. 18:37:44 #info Still a lot to argue about regarding the venue... Nothing is final, nothing is clear. 18:37:49 the 24/7 access issue has not been a problem 18:37:50 gwolf, ok... let's explore other options 18:37:59 no word from the admin vice-dean about that 18:38:04 #info What does the future hold for us besides fear, uncertainty and doubt? 18:38:05 I think that was accepted 18:38:14 #topic Video team shipping 18:38:20 xamanu, not by the admin 18:38:57 thats FUD again 18:39:02 ;) 18:39:17 who has information on this topic? 18:39:20 * h01ger has 18:39:25 * xamanu has 18:39:36 please stop keeping it for yourselves 18:39:41 :) 18:39:45 The ATA card does not apply to Nicaraguan custom law. 18:39:47 :) 18:39:54 So we have to get all the permits by ourselves. Basically it is to apply for a "temporal entry" for all goods, pay the amount the tax would be and when sending it back (within 6 months max) they would refund the deposited money. 18:39:55 but i'd like to move on, except saying that people are working on it and that the budget lacks it 18:40:06 It might be beneficial to have to going through NGOs (a German or French NGO sends it to an Nicaraguan NGO), but this has to be investigated in detail, still. 18:40:27 xamanu, i really suggest to drop it here. too much details and i dont want to discuss things here i know already 18:40:40 * gwolf has to disappear for a bit - moray, please take over the #infos 18:40:47 i will take care of this. with help from xamanu and jimbodoors and other locals 18:41:02 h01ger: I told everything I had about it. Just to inform people 18:41:05 #info h01ger is working on video team shipping, with the localteam 18:41:44 #info ATA carnet doesn't work for Nicaragua, special permits will be needed 18:41:55 #topic Travel bursaries 18:42:05 (we have no money) 18:42:24 There was an idea to do this "early", but it seems now like that will wait for next year 18:42:39 There are still clever ideas to make the processes better/fairer, as discussed on the list 18:43:02 I'm not sure there's much we can usefully discuss, but please speak now if you want to :) 18:43:29 do we want to "borrow" from debian to be able to have attendees? 18:44:35 * h01ger lost net, sorry 18:44:37 darst, borrow what? 18:44:38 darst: getting additional attendees makes the budget worse 18:44:49 h01ger: he means, take some travel money from other Debian funds 18:45:05 sponsoring travel is not in my book, atm 18:45:53 ok 18:46:02 * gwolf is back 18:46:33 aob? 18:46:40 h01ger: I hope no tto be too optimistic... But we always scream "no money!" in March/April 18:46:43 and things end up working 18:46:51 (so, lets keep worrying to get sponsors :) ) 18:47:14 gwolf, yeah. cause then we realize its either canceling debconf or looking for totally new options, like going to grenada or leon or i dunno what we could do else 18:47:41 no paying accom+food+travel sponsoring at all is also "a new option" in a way 18:47:43 right, we have fixed dates 18:47:46 the healthy amount of panic... just not giving-up amount 18:47:48 yes, we have to work harder on the sponsors front and try to magically reduce our budget 18:47:49 we will manage somehome :) 18:47:50 and we need to pay for a venue somewhere *soon* 18:48:21 the venue (including hacking space) for the main week is the most vital thing 18:48:37 right... 18:48:46 it would be difficult, but debcamp *can* be somewhere completely different 18:48:57 we dont neccessarily have to *pay* the venue soon. we need to *confirm* with them - which usually involves some paying :) 18:48:58 and we don't *need* to pay food/accommodation for anyone 18:49:15 h01ger: right, it's actually better if there's some paying to make it more formal 18:49:41 h01ger: but we should (certainly!) know we have enough money for the venue to work, before booking it 18:49:46 Of course, we can cut back on paying *anything* - But I would expect many usual attendees to drop their plans if food+hotel is not covered 18:49:55 Of course... that would bring other costs down 18:50:06 as a conference for 30 people needs less infrastructure than one for 300 18:50:16 gwolf: I think from foreigners those people will already be dropping it if travel isn't paid 18:50:32 (and it's unlikely we can pay (much) travel) 18:50:43 we dont pay that many peoples traveling 18:50:50 "just" 30-40 people... 18:51:07 moray: Most people get lodging/food sponsorship. Few get travel. 18:51:12 h01ger: with Europe/US-Nicaragua prices? 18:51:23 see 18:51:28 aob? 18:51:41 * h01ger would like to cllose the meeting and go through the budget 18:51:44 #topic Any other business (ideas to get $100 000s?) 18:52:10 tsihrt designs? ;) 18:52:17 text for a cfp? 18:52:24 dont we open cfp with registration? 18:52:30 Usually we do 18:52:40 h01ger: we shouldn't open registration until we have the venue confirmed 18:52:42 And we can use basically every past year's CfP text 18:52:49 gwolf, moray: #save please 18:52:52 but yes, the text is easy to get 18:52:52 #save 18:52:53 #save 18:53:19 I have an upcoming meeting - one that cannot be confined to a window in my computer 18:53:22 right. so lets look at frab ;) 18:53:27 haha 18:53:27 so I'll leave you for now. 18:53:33 does anyone think we should make these announcements in generic form, save on wiki, so future years we can just take them off-the-shelf ? 18:53:34 h01ger: you are the Migration Commissioner. 18:53:35 next meeting? 18:53:48 Wednesday 28? 18:53:54 darst: if you want generic form, it's probably actually easier to correctly paste them from svn 18:54:01 (so add them there, sure) 18:54:04 (I tried to collect links to past ones on wiki so they can copied as a base for future years) 18:54:09 leogg: do you expect to have news in six days? 18:54:35 gwolf, yes, I think so 18:54:40 gwolf: we have to! 18:54:45 next meeting in 2 weeks? 18:54:45 when will the friendly it-head be back? 18:55:10 h01ger, in two weeks is holy week... bad idea in .ni... everyone is on vacation 18:55:19 If it can be next week as you suggests, I'm for it 18:55:32 (and yes, I might also be a couple of days away from the city during the holy week( 18:55:36 ) ) 18:56:00 if it's next week, shall we only schedule "venue" and AOB? 18:56:13 moray: registration as well!? 18:56:24 xamanu: registration is tied to venue 18:56:36 xamanu: test registration FWIW 18:56:45 and budget 18:56:48 right, but in case we still want to open registration on 1 of april 18:56:49 so whenever we have a venue secured, we can just say "go!" 18:56:57 right 18:57:02 if you say so.... 18:57:03 xamanu: it could be mistaken for a joke :-} 18:57:05 yep 18:57:40 ok. venue only is fine for me. the status of penta etc. can be handled off-meeting 18:57:43 * h01ger lost net again 18:57:46 sigh 18:57:49 * h01ger is not sure next week makes sense 18:57:52 there wont be much news 18:57:53 and we can already *write* the text for the call for papers 18:57:55 do we have a talkteamlead this year? 18:58:12 h01ger: if local team want a meeting on venue next week, we should have it 18:58:22 h01ger: we need to have a decision on the venue ASAP and together with you. if not we will go crazy (no joke) 18:58:30 h01ger: I can take up talks team this year again 18:58:45 alright 18:58:46 #info gwolf can take up leading talks team this year again 18:58:49 gwolf, cool 18:59:00 gwolf: please find someone else for the next year :) 18:59:07 and force them to help this time 18:59:15 moray, xamanu: then lets have a meeting next week, but just 2 topics: budget + venue. nothing else. (except aob ;) 18:59:28 h01ger, I agree 18:59:28 ok 18:59:29 h01ger: yup, that's what I said above :) 18:59:40 h01ger: and really here they're the same one topic 18:59:43 moray: I expect to invoke the same team, and see what happens 18:59:50 maybe getting one of them to lead 18:59:58 gwolf, I can help you for next year (I don't know if I'll go to .ni) 19:00:01 Anyway, /me leaves you for the day 19:00:03 #info next meeting, next week. when? 19:00:10 Caroll: the team does not need being there :) 19:00:16 so, you are in! 19:00:17 h01ger: they said Wednesday 28 19:00:22 time? 19:00:25 same time 19:00:30 h01ger, Wednesday 28 18UTC 19:00:30 gwolf, cool! So I can hep this year :) 19:00:32 #info Caroll is in the talks team :) 19:00:45 #info next meeting, wednesday, 28 april, 18 utc 19:00:48 #endmeeting 19:00:55 * h01ger bows + grins 19:01:00 #info Next meeting (just venue/budget), Wednesday, 28 April, 18 UTC 19:01:01 thank you h01ger 19:01:02 thanks moray and gwolf for chairing 19:01:05 #endmeeting