19:03:19 <Caroll> #startmeeting DebConf13 decision meeting
19:03:19 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Feb 20 19:03:19 2012 UTC.  The chair is Caroll. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:03:19 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:03:44 <h01ger> hello again :)
19:03:53 <gismo_ch> hi everyone
19:04:00 <Caroll> #topic Introductions/questions
19:04:20 <h01ger> where is the agenda again? whats the side-channels?
19:04:21 <Caroll> Hi, thanks everyone for attending the meeting.
19:04:44 <Caroll> As you know, the point of this meeting is to decide a venue for DebConf13.  The tradition is that we aim to get a consensus decision, but to avoid a stalemate and for clarity we'll ask the DebConf Committee members to vote on the winner at the end.
19:05:01 <Caroll> You can check the formal details in http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/BidProcess
19:05:16 <Caroll> For the first part of the meeting, we ask only two representatives from the bid teams, and DebConf Committee members, to speak on this channel.  I suggest others use #debconf-discuss, then people can proxy any points from there to here if needed.
19:05:41 <gwolf> #info The designated speakers are, for Latvia, aigarius_lv and pecisk_lv, and for Switzerland, gismo_ch and gaudenz_ch
19:06:00 <Caroll> Hopefully everyone watching has read through the bids.  If not, see
19:06:00 <Caroll> http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Latvia
19:06:00 <Caroll> and
19:06:00 <Caroll> http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Switzerland/Bid
19:06:11 <gwolf> #info the channel is now moderated. For participation, please join #debconf-discuss and we will try to relay.
19:06:32 <Caroll> Before we get going, could each bid team give a quick introduction (whatever they want to say), and ask any final questions you might have -- Switzerland first?
19:06:56 <gismo_ch> Caroll: as you want
19:06:59 <gismo_ch> gaudenz_ch: should I?
19:07:07 <gaudenz_ch> gismo_ch: go on
19:07:31 <gismo_ch> quick summary: the Swiss bid was prepared as a team under the debian.ch umbrella
19:07:36 <h01ger> i see http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/BidProcess#Venue_decision has a agenda for today, but http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Meetings lacks an agenda - shall we put one up there?
19:07:41 <h01ger> also with a timeline?
19:07:52 <gismo_ch> h01ger: OK, tell me when I can continue ;-)
19:07:52 <h01ger> we used to limit this to the 3h, /me thinks
19:07:56 <moray> there was one somewhere, maybe it's on dc12 by mistake?
19:08:02 <moray> h01ger: last year was 2 1/2 hours
19:08:13 <moray> h01ger: I hope we could do less this year, the effective agenda is shorter
19:08:21 <moray> as the team comments are posted in advance
19:08:24 <gwolf> I hope we make it shorter this time
19:08:48 <bdale> gismo_ch: please continue even while the logistics are discussed
19:08:55 <moray> maybe 1 1/2 max?
19:09:11 <gismo_ch> the debian.ch infrastructure was used together with the lists.debconf.net, so everything was/is public
19:09:41 <gismo_ch> we are at least 6 core members (4 DDs, already present at past DebConfs)
19:09:42 <gwolf> h01ger: moray prepared a simple script for this, and Caroll has it now. We can treat it as the agenda... even if it's not wiki-based and with our usual agendas
19:10:13 <gismo_ch> plus other local team members (DDs included) already active in the debian.ch infrastructure
19:10:26 <moray> http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Meetings does have the agenda, just not so detailed
19:10:30 <gismo_ch> and other new members from external associations
19:10:52 <gismo_ch> during our meetings, it was clear that we were interested in a "different" DebConf
19:11:12 <h01ger> gwolf, moray, Caroll: then please put the script on http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Meetings
19:11:16 <gismo_ch> Switzerland is known for the natural environment and this was our main goal: a DebConf "inside" the nature
19:11:28 <gwolf> h01ger: I'll do it
19:11:57 <h01ger> thanks. and lets have formal blaba on #debconf-discuss :)
19:12:03 <gismo_ch> so quickly we decided to focus on such venues, still keeping the biggest cities (Zürich and Genève) as a backup option
19:12:40 <gismo_ch> the final choice was 'Le Camp', decided after three of us (gaudenz_ch, Odyx and myself) visited it and discussed the detail with the current director
19:13:33 <gismo_ch> the venue is managed by a YMCA association, it can accomodate 325 people plus more if needed on the surroundings (camping allowed)
19:14:18 <gismo_ch> it is structured in various ~30-person bungalows, with a central structure for meals and big auditoriums (300 places)
19:15:18 <gwolf> #info Switzerland focuses on a "DebConf inside the nature"
19:15:23 <gismo_ch> it is situated in front of the lake of Neuchatel (one of the central lake in Switzerland) and next to the central Alps, well-known for climbing and mountain walking
19:16:14 <gismo_ch> Vaumarcus, the village where the camp is located, is small, but still connected with the two major cities on the side of the lake: Neuchatel and Yverdons-les-Bains
19:16:23 <gwolf> #info Proposed venue: "Le Camp", managed by YMCA, can accomodate 325 people plus campers (camping allowed)
19:16:39 <gismo_ch> it is at about 2-3 hours from GVA or ZRH (the two main airports) by public transports
19:17:10 <gismo_ch> there will be a fiber Internet connection, also decided by the foundation managing the camp because we were interested to go there
19:17:17 <gismo_ch> (so yes, they "used" us)
19:17:42 <gismo_ch> (for this reason they also told us that they would like us as a sort of "giving back")
19:17:53 <Caroll> gismo_ch, I sorry, I forgot to tell you that you have 10 minutes to the introduction
19:18:15 <gaudenz_ch> To summarize our bid strongly focuses on the community gathering aspect of DebConf as everything is on one compound outside of major cities. We'll have the whole thing exclusively for DebConf.
19:18:15 <moray> Caroll: I think that was meant to be for both :)
19:18:19 <Caroll> #info bid teams have 10 minutes to give a quick introduction
19:18:20 <gismo_ch> Caroll: that is a nice way to tell me I should stop ;-)
19:18:25 <Caroll> moray, sure
19:18:36 <gwolf> sorry, we didn't have many formalities ironed out :)
19:18:42 <Caroll> gismo_ch, I sorry :D
19:18:46 <gaudenz_ch> To get the impression have a look at the picture on http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Switzerland/Bid
19:18:46 <gwolf> moray: well, it should now be 10+10 to be fair :)
19:18:48 <gismo_ch> gwolf: np, as usual I talk a lot (as any Italians...)
19:18:59 <aigarius_lv> I am Aigars Mahinovs and the bid for Riga, Latvia is my brainchild with the help of several core members of Latvian open source community who have worked hard to make the typically hard issues look trivial.
19:19:12 <aigarius_lv> The focus of the bid is the city of Riga and the Latvian University building in the center of it, so this is a city center Debconf with an emphasis on academia.
19:19:26 <aigarius_lv> Accomodation in hostels reinforces the cheap, studenty aspect of the bid, while more expensive hotel accomodation option promotes Riga as a growing tourism capital with a small, but busy airport.
19:19:40 <aigarius_lv> To show off the nature and history of Latvia, we have planned a day trip that would take us to a castle of Cesis where there are both ruins and a restored castle, medieval meal is planned there ...
19:19:57 <aigarius_lv> And for deeper plunge into the nature we plan to take all 300 people down the river Gauja for a 3 hour calm ride in 6-12 man boats, before going back to the Cesis castle for dinner.
19:20:53 <gwolf> #info Latvia bid: In the University in the center of Riga (capital); accomodation available in hostels or more expensive hotels
19:20:54 <aigarius_lv> So Riga is either a cheap student focused bid or a really touristy bid, depending on how much we have to spend
19:21:45 <aigarius_lv> that's all from me
19:22:02 <gwolf> ok, thanks!
19:22:15 <gwolf> for helping us stay within the planned time
19:22:49 <gwolf> #info Riga is either a cheap student focused bid or a really touristy bid, depending on how much we have to spend
19:23:19 * h01ger would like to hear more about the local teams, esp. in regards of getting sponsorships from companies - local+worldwide
19:23:32 <gwolf> h01ger: wait, wait
19:23:42 <Caroll> #topic Bid team answers -- weak and strong points of bids
19:24:01 * h01ger stands back. gwolf knows regular expressions.
19:24:24 <bdale> h01ger: ;-)
19:24:28 <Caroll> ok, time for the questions :)
19:25:12 <h01ger> please change topic then. makes it clearer, also for meetbot summary
19:26:28 <pecisk_lv> so what's usual weater at conf time at 'Le Camp'? :) It looks like really decent place btw
19:26:42 <gwolf> time for the committee (and both teams) to voice their questions here
19:26:51 <gwolf> And for all others, go to #debconf-discuss, we will relay.
19:27:44 * bubulle is still trying to find the "our weak points and others strong points" from lv bid
19:27:55 <gismo_ch> pecisk_lv: August is usually sunny, in the cities it can be quite hot (>25C), while on the countryside/mountains it is nicer (around 15-25C)
19:27:59 <gaudenz_ch> questions about what? I thought questions would be under point "Priority List" and "Discussion".
19:28:00 <bdale> it appears to me that the Latvian proposal has some indication of local sponsorship for things like connectivity, but both bids seem fairly light on information about possible local sponsors?  comments from each team would be appreciated.
19:28:09 <Caroll> #info Latvia priority list http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Latvia/PriorityList
19:28:39 <Caroll> #info Switzerland priority list http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Switzerland/Bid/PriorityList#DebConf_PriorityList
19:28:48 <pecisk_lv> gismo_ch, nice
19:28:54 <gismo_ch> bdale: basically, debian.ch is sponsored by <http://www.init7.ch/>, which has been already contacted for DebConf13
19:29:15 * gwolf reads that it seems I misread this to be the Q&A section - so lets answer what has already been asked, and move on with Da Script
19:29:20 <moray> ok, once the current questions are done, can we have a few minutes break for people to read through those priority list answers?
19:29:51 <gaudenz_ch> pecisk_lv: that's a climate diagram for neuchatel http://www.klimadiagramme.de/Europa/Schweiz/neuchatel.html
19:29:55 * bdale has read both priority lists already, and thanks the team for the effort they represent
19:30:04 <gwolf> #info Weather in August in .ch is usually sunny, 15-25°C
19:30:10 <gismo_ch> bdale: for other sponsors >http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Switzerland/minutes-20111116#Possible_sponsors
19:30:46 <gwolf> #info For sponsorship information: debian.ch is sponsored by <http://www.init7.ch/>, which has been already contacted for DebConf13; for other sponsors >http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Switzerland/minutes-20111116#Possible_sponsors
19:30:52 <aigarius_lv> with the economic situation being as it is I do not expect to be able to get any significant local monetary sponsorship, Latvia has been hit particularly hard. There are very positive recovery signs lately, but with the rest of EU in turmoil I would not bet on it right now.
19:30:58 <gismo_ch> bdale: basically, the university of Suisse Romande (HES Neuchatel) could also be interested (and it was privately contacted), but there was no final answer yet
19:31:07 <gaudenz_ch> bdale: As I said in a response to h01ger on the debconf-team list I expect quite substantial local sponsorship.
19:31:54 <bdale> ok, thanks
19:32:07 <gwolf> #info Latvian team: No significant local monetary sponsorship is expected, as the current crisis has hit Latvia particularly hard. Situation might change later on.
19:33:35 <gaudenz_ch> http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20120203.112740.319f61fc.en.html is the mail
19:35:05 <Caroll> #topic Priority list
19:35:48 <Caroll> OK, now we'll work through the priority list,
19:35:48 <Caroll> http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/PriorityList
19:35:48 <Caroll> considering each item for each bid, and noting areas where there is consensus that bids are stronger than each other. This stage is intended to ensure that no important topic is missed, but even if there is agreement on each bid's advantages, coming to a decision isn't simply a mathematical calculation: some aspects are more important than others.
19:37:24 <Caroll> 1. "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees
19:38:22 <gwolf> Well, I don't want to sound as if we are choosing according to monetary points only - But while I see there is a proposed/preliminary Swiss budget at ~€175,000, I cannot find an actual number proposed by Latvians
19:38:30 <gaudenz_ch> Caroll: Do you expect us to say something or is this more a discussion among the DC comitee?
19:38:35 <gwolf> I might be a bit blind, of course. Do you have it?
19:38:40 <gismo_ch> gwolf: <http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Latvia#Budget>
19:38:44 <gwolf> oh, sorry
19:38:51 <gwolf> too obvious, it seems
19:38:55 <moray> I think this is about the aggregate cost of having the conference, shared between the sponsored part (venue, sponsored food and accommodation) and the part attendees pay directly (travel costs, non-sponsored hotels/food etc.).
19:39:02 <Caroll> thanks, gismo_ch
19:39:31 <aigarius_lv> I think we can assume that Swiss bid is more affordable for Swiss sponsors, thus there is a larger chance of getting some support there
19:39:33 <ana> I would like to hear from both bids their numbers and estimate costs (person-day)
19:39:36 <gwolf> #info Overall preliminary budgets offered: Switzerland, ~€175,000; Latvia, ~€147,350
19:39:40 <bubulle> at first glance, lv seems more affordable than ch...at least this is what numbers on the prio list say
19:39:41 <moray> Looking at the daily costs / possibilities, I thought Latvia looked somewhat cheaper, depending on the option we choose?
19:40:07 <moray> Latvia had more flexibility that we could go for cheaper stuff (free venues, hostels etc.) if we're short on money
19:40:11 <gwolf> right, sorry again for reading too fast
19:40:15 <gwolf> it's sometimes hard to relay
19:40:47 <aigarius_lv> #info Latvia with a hostel option - 86,000 €
19:40:48 <gaudenz_ch> our budget includes about 20k € of travel costs (from airports to venue) which are not included in the latvian bid budget
19:40:49 <gismo_ch> bubulle: clear, but still consider the cost of living in .ch (thus, everything is more expensive)
19:40:50 <gwolf> #info Actually, Latvia has two possible bids, depending on our desired luxury level: 85,925 and 147,350
19:41:00 <bubulle> Latvia is likely to be more expensive when it comes at travel sponsorship
19:41:07 <moray> Normally for each point we just want to conclude something like "IR is ahead"
19:41:08 <aigarius_lv> also we have included our estimates for day trip and the formal diner
19:41:30 <moray> bubulle: Latvia flights are very cheap from London, for example -- for Switzerland you also need to consider the train costs etc.
19:42:03 <bdale> yes, it clearly will cost more for attendees to do the post-air-flight ground transport on the Swiss bid than on the Latvian bid
19:42:05 <moray> bubulle: and some undefined transport from the station to the site, that I guess we'll need to subsidise centrally
19:42:10 <aigarius_lv> without the daytrip and formal diner costs the totals are 69,500 €  and 130,000 €
19:42:32 <bubulle> anyway, since the beginning of these bids, I've always been feeling that lv would stay ahead of ch and for me it's still the case
19:42:38 <gaudenz_ch> bdale: but that's exactly what we already included in the budget.
19:42:38 <ultrt> gaudenz_ch: in the latvian case though the airport is in the venue city, right?
19:42:40 <gwolf> #info .lv option includes daytrip and formal dinner (~15000€ together)
19:42:58 <moray> I don't blame Switzerland about the costs, they've done well to fine this in such an expensive country, but it seems to me we can conclude for this point "LV is more affordable"
19:42:59 <ana> could we please, going item by item? first lodging, them food then travel with itemized values
19:43:09 <aigarius_lv> The airport is in the venue city and the ticket is 1 € (or 10€ taxi ride)
19:43:09 <bdale> I'll note that the original day trip was something attendees paid to participate in even if otherwise sponsored for travel.  I'm not saying it's a problem for the day trip to be sponsored, but rather pointing out that it doesn't need to be to satisfy me
19:43:18 <gismo_ch> moray: agreed
19:43:28 <ana> becsause now we are talking about personal stimations and I would love to know where those numbers come from.
19:43:29 <gwolf> moray: I agree with your methodology. We can talk details forever about the points
19:43:36 <gwolf> so, I'll do as you say
19:43:42 <moray> I don't think getting into cents is going to be useful
19:43:46 <gwolf> #info Latvia is more affordable.
19:43:51 <gwolf> Caroll: please continue :)
19:43:53 <ana> I don't agree
19:43:54 <aigarius_lv> ana, the budgets are detailed on both bid pages
19:44:08 <gismo_ch> ana: there were notes on the Swiss budget, they are *real* numbers from 'Le Camp' or the Swiss Rail company
19:44:17 <Caroll> 2. strong, mature, experienced local team
19:44:52 <bdale> the swiss team has more DD's currently identified, but both teams seem adequate to the task to me
19:44:57 <aigarius_lv> I'd say there is little debate that the Swiss local team is larger and has more collective Debconf experience
19:44:58 <gaudenz_ch> I agree that lv is probably more affordable. I guess with good negotiating and a bit of luck we can come down to the costs of the luxury variant of lv.
19:45:03 <bubulle> I'd say in now doubt that ch is ahead here. Actually, the SPOF point is imho one of the weakest points of lv
19:45:16 <moray> bubulle is on point 2
19:45:18 <gaudenz_ch> But anything cheaper is not possible or includes very undesirable options.
19:45:19 <gwolf> Both teams seem adequate as well, but the Swiss team has been more involved (as a whole) in DebConf so far
19:45:34 <gwolf> #info Switzerland has a stronger, maturer, more experienced local team
19:45:36 <moray> Right, the biggest important thing is prior DebConf experience
19:45:41 <gwolf> No need to debate here. Please go on!
19:45:44 <moray> yup
19:46:15 <bdale> gaudenz_ch: I, for one, am not interested in only thinking of the "cheapest possible Debconf" .. but rather we need to make sure that a bid is "plausibly affordable" on some level relative to likely sponsorship, etc
19:47:25 <gwolf> Caroll: please next point!
19:47:56 <gwolf> oops, I'll take up, wait
19:48:13 <gwolf> 3. good working spaces
19:48:32 <moray> This is about the quality of the talk rooms, discussion rooms, hacklabs -- do they have all the space, climate control, light-level control, etc. we want, or are there compromises needed?  (This doesn't include presentation facilities etc., that comes later.  And there's a separate point for accessibility later, too.)
19:48:58 <moray> Any views here?
19:49:41 * bubulle thinks that bids are more or less even here....
19:49:47 <bdale> no clear distinctions to me
19:49:55 <bubulle> unless the number of attendees eceeds 325
19:49:58 <bdale> they're different but both seem fine
19:50:12 <gismo_ch> bubulle: right, 325 is the key point for .ch
19:50:37 <gwolf> so, we mark it as even and continue
19:50:43 <gwolf> unless somebody speaks fast
19:50:50 <aigarius_lv> question - how is the DebianDay planned in .ch?
19:50:51 <ultrt> what was the number at previous debconfs?
19:51:06 <moray> has been up to about 400
19:51:06 <gaudenz_ch> I think the main difference is while in ch we have plenty (about 20) of smaller and medium simple rooms in lv you have actual university seminar rooms and auditoriums
19:51:08 <gwolf> ultrt: That's close to the maximum
19:51:15 <gwolf> moray: it has been only in Edinburgh, though
19:51:22 <aigarius_lv> are local people going to be bussed in? or are we having it at a different locale?
19:51:34 <moray> gwolf: right, because that was cheap to travel to, probably -- as Switzerland might be :)
19:51:46 <gwolf> gaudenz_ch: in Le Camp we don't have big auditoriums?
19:51:48 <gaudenz_ch> according to the statistics none of the past few debconfs had more than 325 ppl actually showing up for accomodation.
19:51:58 <gismo_ch> gwolf: we have
19:52:09 <bdale> moray: riga sounds easy to get to for europeans too, though?
19:52:10 <gwolf> gaudenz_ch: right, but we'd expect close to 100% to be lodged at Le Camp if we go to .ch
19:52:14 <moray> gaudenz_ch: right, but in Edinburgh, say, many stayed in altnerative accommodation nearby
19:52:18 <gaudenz_ch> We have one room for the whole debconf but I would not call that an auditorium.
19:52:21 <gismo_ch> gwolf: the big building on the left in...
19:52:25 <gaudenz_ch> It's just a room with chairs.
19:52:30 <ultrt> gaudenz_ch: consider that in places like EDI, NY, etc many people had alternative accomodation possible. In Le Camp it will be "venue or nothing", right?
19:52:31 <ana> bdale: no, at all. geneva/zurich is easier
19:52:37 <moray> gaudenz_ch: only one talk room?
19:52:48 <bdale> ok .. they're both a pita for me
19:52:48 <gismo_ch> moray: only one 300+ talk room
19:53:01 <gwolf> And also, although a little bit secondary but still... Do you expect DebCamp to happen also at Le Camp? Do we expect people from the nearby cities to go there?
19:53:15 <moray> gwolf: you mean Debian Day?
19:53:20 <gismo_ch> gwolf: DebCamp will be at 'Le Camp', yes
19:53:22 <bdale> you mean DebianDay, or Debcamp?
19:53:30 <gismo_ch> gwolf: for the price discussed before we have the *whole* venue for two weeks
19:53:32 <gaudenz_ch> moray: no, but only one for the whole crowd.
19:53:44 <moray> gaudenz_ch: ok, that's normal
19:53:48 <aigarius_lv> I mean DebianDay
19:53:54 <ultrt> ana: zurich/geneva are more expensive airports to fly to, aren't they? (/me remember very cheap airbaltic flights to riga, but of course I haven't flown there that much, just twice, and commuting)
19:53:55 <gwolf> sorry, debianday
19:54:25 <gaudenz_ch> We did not decide about debian day yet. We discussed both options: at le camp or in a nearby city.
19:54:25 <gismo_ch> gwolf: Vaumarcus is not so far from surrounding cities, which means that it is suitable to travel for a single day
19:54:36 <gwolf> ultrt: For me, at least (one transatlantic and one intra-european) it's ~US$500 cheaper to get to .ch :(
19:54:39 <bdale> DebianDay seems optional to me, driven by whether we're in a location with a potential target audience for which it's a relevant concept
19:54:39 <gaudenz_ch> Neuchatel has an unversity where we could probably have debian day.
19:54:42 <bubulle> question to Latvian team: did I miss something about over 100 attendees room?
19:54:58 <gwolf> bdale: yes, that's why I said it was a bit secondary
19:55:11 <gwolf> So, do you agree that Latvia has some leverage in this point?
19:55:23 <gwolf> Not a huge one, but some
19:55:34 <ana> ultrt: not from my pov
19:55:35 <bubulle> "Latvian University venue has a large number of classrooms with sizes from 20 to 100 people". So, nothing above 100?
19:55:37 <ultrt> gwolf: yes, I meant for europeans, internationally it's definitely the case
19:55:40 <karora> ultrt: For me Zurich would definitely be a lot cheaper, because it's a hub.
19:55:56 <bdale> it's always good when we can do general outreach work or help with local government interest and so forth, but Debconf and particularly Debcamp are supposed to be about working together on Debian .. and that seems really quite well suited for the kind of venue the swiss bid proposes
19:56:06 <gwolf> aigarius_lv: ↑ bubulle's question
19:56:35 <aigarius_lv> bubulle, there are two meeting rooms, one 500+ and another around 300
19:56:46 <bdale> it's very nice when small groups can wander off to have separate meals or discussions when we're in a city center, but on the other hand there's a lot to be said for keeping everyone mostly together for most of the time
19:56:57 <bubulle> aigarius_lv: ok, thw, I missed that on the prio list
19:57:00 <aigarius_lv> what I was saying that there are many rooms of up to 100 people
19:57:06 <gaudenz_ch> there is a picture of the main talk room: http://www.lecamp.ch/images/batiments/1int.jpg
19:57:07 <pecisk_lv> bubulle, well, for classrooms, I have seen aproximetly 150 people there, but that's maximum
19:57:18 <bdale> afk for a few mins, back soon
19:57:28 <gwolf> Ok, people, to move on:
19:57:32 * bubulle eats cheese
19:57:35 <h01ger> bdale, yes. i see le camp in le nature as stronger than a university (again)
19:58:41 * bubulle also thinks ch has a small lead here (prximity between working spaces, talk rooms and even lodging)
19:58:54 <gwolf> ok... on different criteria I can see people favoring one or the other
19:59:02 <gwolf> so... We call it a tie for point #3
19:59:10 <moray> yeah
19:59:10 <gwolf> if somebody objects, ping fast.
19:59:23 <gwolf> #info Working spaces is a tie.
19:59:38 <bubulle> ping
19:59:50 <gwolf> bubulle: ?
19:59:59 <bubulle> sorry, I haven't seen ppl rankin lv first on that point
20:00:05 <gaudenz_ch> I guess we lost Caroll again?
20:00:11 <bubulle> bu tI may have missed something
20:00:36 <gwolf> 4. excellent network connectivity
20:00:37 * h01ger nods bubulle
20:00:48 <aigarius_lv> http://www.lu.lv/eng/visitors/rooms/greathall/ - here are some images of LU great hall if someone is interested
20:00:49 <moray> We've often installed our own networking including the uplink, but this is about what's realistically possible, without assuming any special sponsorship from telecoms companies unless that's already agreed.
20:00:54 <gwolf> bubulle: ok... we can get back to it later if a tie-breaker is needed
20:01:02 <bubulle> gwolf: ok
20:01:18 <Caroll> gwolf, thanks!
20:01:31 <gismo_ch> lv wins here, at least because the connectivity is already in place
20:01:33 <karora> These are quite different bids, and I suspect that point by point ranking is not ultimately going to be what makes the decision.
20:01:41 <moray> karora: indeed
20:01:42 * bubulle agrees with gismo_ch
20:02:00 <karora> The main value to me in going through each of these points is to ensure that each bid meets a minimum requirement.
20:02:02 <gwolf> #info Latvia wins re: connectivity
20:02:16 <gwolf> 5. quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
20:02:20 <moray> This covers both the choice of sponsored food, and other restaurants/bars nearby (often where some of the most useful discussions have happened!).
20:02:29 <karora> On the point of connectivity I'd like to get some idea of how much work it will be to get the fibre in.
20:02:34 <karora> How far does it have to come, etc.
20:02:41 <karora> Fo .ch bid.
20:03:03 <gismo_ch> karora: the fiber should arrive at 'Le Camp', so it should be a matter of ethernet plugs
20:03:19 <gismo_ch> karora: i.e., the problem was to bring the fiber *there*, not to the village
20:03:20 <karora> Yeah, but how complex is the job of "getting the fibre to the camp"?
20:03:20 <bdale> back
20:03:38 <h01ger> aroundthfur, please put the #info here, so MeetBot will read them
20:03:39 <karora> I know we don't have to do it, but I want to know it will be done in time.
20:03:48 <bubulle> from the map, a main train line is very close so I suspect good connectivty to be not that far
20:03:49 <gismo_ch> karora: this is what we asked for and they assured us it will be
20:04:07 <gaudenz_ch> karora: From vaumarcus to le camp at most, probably depends on who is going to do it and where their next exchange point is.
20:04:12 <gismo_ch> karora: but obviously, I stressed them on that (and I talked to the madame responsoble for that)
20:04:21 <karora> OK, thanks.
20:04:22 <gaudenz_ch> this means about 500m to 700m
20:04:26 <h01ger> this is .ch, consider it done ;)
20:04:30 <gismo_ch> karora: BTW, Init7 was also contacted on this point
20:04:30 <karora> Heh.
20:05:01 <ultrt> also: these are swiss, so they're likely to be able to do these types of work in times impossible for other countries :)
20:05:20 <gwolf> ok, people...
20:05:22 * ultrt has seen entire tram lines removed and reinstalled in zurich in weeks o-O
20:05:23 <gwolf> going on,
20:05:30 <gwolf> 5. quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
20:05:34 <aigarius_lv> what kind of uplink will they be able to provide there once the fiber is up?
20:05:34 <gwolf> This covers both the choice of sponsored food, and other restaurants/bars nearby (often where some of the most useful discussions have happened!).
20:05:41 <bdale> it does seem like lv has the edge on connectivity just due to it being in place already, but not a big difference if the swiss plans work out
20:05:43 <gwolf> please, we want to go through the points
20:05:50 <gwolf> if we need further details, we can goback to them later
20:05:54 <gwolf> but we need a general overview
20:05:59 <gwolf> and later we will discuss details
20:06:03 <aigarius_lv> ok
20:06:04 <bdale> lv has the advantage on availability of various eateries
20:06:28 <gismo_ch> lv wins here, again
20:06:37 <moray> right
20:06:40 <h01ger> Caroll, seems you have to tell meetbot in channel
20:06:41 <gwolf> #info Latvia has more variety for eating nearby
20:06:46 <gismo_ch> for .ch there will be a bar/shop hosted/managed by us, but everything else is outside in the village
20:06:47 <gaudenz_ch> I don't think the two bids are comparable in this regard.
20:06:48 <bubulle> I would call things even here : "inside" good quality food likely to be easir in ch, but "outside" more easily avail in lv
20:06:52 <pecisk_lv> http://osm.org/go/0wJddJkGJ--  Riga's old town, mapped nicely with lot of eathing places
20:07:12 <Caroll> #chair h01ger
20:07:12 <MeetBot> Current chairs: Caroll h01ger
20:07:18 <gwolf> gaudenz_ch: right. That's the difference between an in-city and in-nature bid :)
20:07:31 * bdale has eaten well in .ch, knows nothing about the food in latvia first-hand
20:07:32 <h01ger> #save
20:07:33 <gaudenz_ch> gismo_ch: to be honest we have to tell them that there is no bar in the village... the closest one is about 5km away...
20:07:35 <gwolf> ...And I think the same will be true for the next point:
20:07:38 <gwolf> 6. suitable accommodation in close proximity
20:07:46 <gwolf> This covers both availability of cheap enough reasonable accommodation for us to sponsor, and good enough accommodation for people who e.g. want their own private space.
20:07:55 <gismo_ch> gaudenz_ch: ah, true, I forgot that (and sorry to the others)
20:08:00 <aroundthfur> #info the ch bid will have "inside" good food, so not a total win for lv?
20:08:07 <aigarius_lv> pecisk_lv, and I know for fact that there are more places that are not on that map
20:08:15 <pecisk_lv> bdale, we have cultural mix of cuisines, and we sure love tasty food
20:08:18 <bdale> yes, .ch has what seems like a very good housing plan in that it's all at one facility, but lv has a range of options that cater well to different attendee needs
20:08:22 <pecisk_lv> aigarius_lv, then map them please there :)
20:08:23 <aigarius_lv> what does 'inside' food mean here?
20:08:34 <bdale> pecisk_lv: I have no doubt, just no personal experience!  ;-)
20:08:37 <moray> aigarius_lv: I guess they mean sponsored/on-site
20:08:43 <aroundthfur> aigarius_lv, the food provided by the ch local team?
20:08:48 <ultrt> aroundthfur: would that mean that the lv bid has inside bad food ?
20:08:50 <bubulle> aigarius_lv: yep, this is what I meant
20:09:14 <bdale> yes, inside food means sponsored / group meals .. outside means going to resturants in small groups, etc
20:09:16 <gwolf> (please understand if I'm a bit too terse here - I'm reading, copying, writing in several places at once)
20:09:16 <aroundthfur> ultrt, no, just pointing that there will be variety of foods in ch also
20:09:31 <h01ger> #chair gwolf
20:09:31 <MeetBot> Current chairs: Caroll gwolf h01ger
20:09:39 <gwolf> h01ger: thanks, redundancy is good
20:09:40 <moray> for accommodation, both are fine for sponsored, I'm a bit concerned about the Swiss option for non-sponsored people who don't want to be in dorms/tents
20:09:50 <aigarius_lv> the 'inside' food in LV is the catering service of the university that has served conferences of up to 500 people before and is right there in the basement of the building, they are very flexible on our needs too
20:10:01 <gwolf> Ok, for both teams: We have a question on how vegan-friendly are your places and arounds
20:10:07 <gwolf> and surroundings
20:10:12 <bubulle> moray: agreed for the weakness of non-sponsored ppl not wanting to be in dorms
20:10:16 <pecisk_lv> and that service is where I eat every day - it's good
20:10:17 * h01ger suggests a break after topic priority list
20:10:27 <gaudenz_ch> moray: how many of them do you expect not to have their own / rented car?
20:10:36 <moray> gaudenz_ch: almost all?
20:10:52 <gwolf> gaudenz_ch: we usually have some poeple that prefer staying at a better hotel than what we provide
20:10:59 <aigarius_lv> there are a couple vegan-only restorants in Riga and most places offer vegan options
20:11:02 <gwolf> and I don't recall them renting a car so far
20:11:05 <gismo_ch> gwolf: 'Le Camp' director assured us that there will be food for any kind of our desire (OK, let it put it nicely)
20:11:06 <bdale> historically, most folks at debconf use public transit to arrive/depart and rented cars are scarse
20:11:18 <gismo_ch> gwolf: which means vegan/vegetarian food will not be a problem *inside* the venuw
20:11:24 <gaudenz_ch> It's just that if they can afford swiss hotel prices renting a car may be not that much of a problem...
20:11:26 <Caroll> we are talking about food and accomodation, at same time
20:11:33 <h01ger> how vegetarian friendly is your country as a whole / on average? more like india or more like bosnia? ;) ie does a "average fast food place" have something else for veggies than fries?
20:11:35 <moray> Caroll: apparently :/
20:11:39 <aroundthfur> #info vegan/vegetarian foods available in both venues
20:11:45 <bdale> gaudenz_ch: a good point
20:11:54 <gismo_ch> h01ger: more like India
20:12:05 <gwolf> ok, stop thinking about food
20:12:11 <gwolf> it's only lunchtime in my timezone ;-)
20:12:15 <aroundthfur> hahaha
20:12:18 <pecisk_lv> h01ger, as I said Latvia i culturar mix, so there's lot of veggies stuff around there
20:12:18 * bubulle is anyway concerned that people hosted outside the main place have such a strong influence on the decision
20:12:20 <gwolf> on to lodging
20:12:31 <gwolf> agree that Latvia has more options for lodging, right?
20:12:51 <gwolf> #info Latvia has more lodging options
20:12:58 <gismo_ch> gwolf: agreed
20:13:02 <gwolf> On to the next point.
20:13:03 <gwolf> 7. presentation facilities
20:13:03 * h01ger thinks a debconf+camp with camping in summer is awesome!
20:13:12 <gwolf> Are there already presentation facilities, or can we easily add those?
20:13:29 <bdale> since Debconf is a business trip for me, I *can* stay pretty much anywhere .. I *prefer* to stay in the main housing venue when possible because it helps me be more connected to the event
20:13:37 <h01ger> #save
20:14:17 <gwolf> Well, it seems moray is not around
20:14:22 <gwolf> I don't really know what this point means ;-)
20:14:26 <gismo_ch> gwolf: we have to add whatever we need, what is already there is not so much
20:14:28 <gwolf> h01ger: maybe it's videoteeam-related?
20:14:34 <moray> I think it means screens, projectors etc.
20:14:37 <Caroll> gwolf, 7. presentation facilities
20:14:38 <Caroll> Are there already presentation facilities, or can we easily add those?
20:14:40 <gwolf> oh, there he is
20:14:48 <moray> we traditionally add them ourselves
20:14:52 <aigarius_lv> well, there is everything we need in LU, even some video stuff
20:14:53 <aroundthfur> gwolf, maybe if the venue is equiped /can be equiped in time with everything needed?
20:14:54 <moray> but it's a positive if they're all already there
20:15:05 <moray> and some venues do *not* allow you to put your own
20:15:19 <gismo_ch> moray: the big room has a screen, already, but the smallest room around not
20:15:32 <pecisk_lv> LU has video projectors in all large auditoriums
20:15:44 <gaudenz_ch> I guess lv wins on this. In ch we have to do it on our own, but it's not difficult.
20:15:48 <gwolf> gismo_ch: Screens do not worry me too much, but projectors do
20:15:56 <gismo_ch> gwolf: I have a projector ;-)
20:16:05 <moray> right, toy office projectors don't work for big rooms
20:16:10 <h01ger> #info i seriously doubt that riga has better lodging if we can mix camping+housing at le camp
20:16:11 <pecisk_lv> ohh and screens too
20:16:13 <gwolf> Do you suggest (for .ch) renting them? Do we have some? Ok, we have some (functional/good ones?)
20:16:27 <gwolf> h01ger: we can get back to discussing later on... Lets move on.
20:16:31 <h01ger> sure
20:17:08 <gwolf> So, we agree Latvia has a better standing here?
20:17:10 <moray> h01ger: (we're off accommodation but) each year some proportion of people *do* ask for single/double hotel rooms, from us or elsewhere, we can decide that's worth losing, but it's real
20:17:13 <bdale> this question came up years ago when we had a bid located in a venue that required we use the stuff they provided at an exhorbitant rate .. so it becomes something to watch out for
20:17:14 <gismo_ch> gwolf: as I said, I have one (Epson EMP-something), but the others should be rented or asked to universities, I guess
20:17:14 <ultrt> h01ger: camping + housing are 2 types of option, while riga has a whole range of hotels/hostels, so I believe it does.
20:17:17 <gaudenz_ch> gwolf: I'm quite positive that we'll be able to lend everything that Debian does not already have from sponsors in .ch.
20:17:20 <aroundthfur> #info lv bid already has almost everything set up in the venue, while we need to set up everything ourselfs for the ch bid
20:17:52 <gwolf> #info Latvian bid has the presentation facilities all set up
20:17:59 <gwolf> 8. travel logistics
20:18:05 <gwolf> Is the place easy to reach?  Can it quickly be reached from an international airport?
20:18:42 <ultrt> and here apparently Switzerland is easier for most. Although there is the additional train/transport.
20:18:49 <aigarius_lv> If we consider RIX an international airport, then it is 20 minutes by public transport (1€ ticket) or 15 minutes by taxi (10€)
20:18:56 <pecisk_lv> 30 min with bus, 15 - 20 min with taxi (as far as I remember) from airport
20:19:04 <pecisk_lv> ok, 20 - 30 min with public transport
20:19:05 <moray> right -- RIX is like Edinburgh I guess for category
20:19:08 <bdale> riga looks easy enough to get to, 3 flights from where I live
20:19:12 <moray> cheap flights from random set of European places
20:19:20 <moray> Switzerland has a long journey afterwards
20:19:20 <ultrt> aigarius_lv: how well is RIX connected with direct inter-continental flights (especially brasil, USA, mexico)
20:19:22 <h01ger> a debcamp with 50-100 geeks camping in summer with wifi (and conf rooms and showers and food served nearby, mind you) is totally different from previous debconfs.
20:19:27 <bubulle> I think that RIX being international airport is quite strongly balanced by it being harder to reach than Zurich or Geneva
20:19:43 <gismo_ch> gwolf: 'Le Camp' is at 2h from GVA and 3h from ZRH, both by public transports (train + bus)
20:19:50 <h01ger> i dont expect even the majority to camp, but still this can be awesome for all
20:19:56 <bdale> my route to riga would likely be via FRA
20:20:07 <aigarius_lv> ultrt, not great. there is one flight to New York. But there would be better luck looking for flights via Helsinki, for example
20:20:15 <gwolf> ultrt: from Latin America, you have to connect at an European hub for both destinations. For Mexico, at least, getting to .ch is cheaper - But that's just my particular case AFAICT
20:20:32 <moray> bubulle: we saw some inverse correlation in the past between travel time from the airport and number of attendees
20:20:32 <gismo_ch> moray: there is a long journey afterwards, but, again, in a natural environment
20:20:46 <gismo_ch> moray: and it is similar to DebConf11 FWIW
20:20:49 * bubulle is fairly sure that the cheapest route to RIX from about anywhere is a non direct one. Including from Europe
20:20:50 <h01ger> #save
20:21:04 <bdale> GVA would also be 3 flights for me
20:21:06 <Caroll> I'm worried about the distance, gismo_ch
20:21:14 <Caroll> in case of an emergency
20:21:22 <gwolf> So, is this a near-tie between LV and CH again? (too different conditions)
20:21:24 <ultrt> moray: to be fair in that sense dc11 was particularly bad
20:21:33 <gwolf> oh, Caroll's point can be interesting (:
20:21:34 <gaudenz_ch> Caroll: What case of emergency?
20:21:34 <h01ger> bdale, might be more effective to switch to train sooner
20:21:36 <Caroll> we'll have to run 100km to reach the next big city, right?
20:21:38 <gismo_ch> Caroll: <http://www.rega.ch/> (seriously)
20:21:38 <aigarius_lv> so for.ch it is easier to reach the airport, but harder to get to venue from the airport, while for .lv it is trivial to get from the airport, but it is a hop further off for most people
20:21:42 <bubulle> near-tie is fine by me, not lv >> ch
20:21:45 <ultrt> two hours of swiss transport and 2 hours of bus passing a border are quite different
20:21:57 <bdale> h01ger: possibly .. particularly because I really like trains
20:22:01 <gismo_ch> Caroll: everything serious in .ch is done by helicopters, either to Lausanne, Genève or Zürich
20:22:03 <Caroll> gaudenz_ch, a medical one, for example
20:22:09 <bdale> and don't get much of them here in co.us ..
20:22:29 <gaudenz_ch> Caroll: We have hospitals all over the place, at least one in Yverdon and Neuchatel.
20:22:31 <gwolf> #info Regarding travel logistics, given they are such different settings, we have another near-tie
20:22:31 <moray> right, but this seemed to be train + bus + walk?
20:22:35 * h01ger only heard swiss trains are awesome. never took one.
20:22:42 <moray> not train to venue
20:22:42 <gaudenz_ch> and helicopters if relly needed.
20:22:46 <gwolf> 9. accessibility
20:22:51 <gismo_ch> moray: for .ch?
20:22:52 <h01ger> (but knowing ZRH i have all reasons to believe that)
20:22:52 <gwolf> Accessibility of the working spaces is vital.  We can arrange some minor work in advance if something isn't ready though -- is everything already accessible in the proposed venue, or if not how much is needed to fix that?
20:23:10 <gaudenz_ch> In case of a medical emergency you'll be in a major university hospital in less than 30 minutes. Guaranteed!
20:23:28 <aigarius_lv> LU venu has a special elevator fitted in for wheelchair access and there is at least one wheelchair student studying there
20:23:54 <pecisk_lv> yeah, and I have studied with him :)
20:24:14 <gwolf> From what we have read, and from the importance we put in the "accessibility" point for so long, I think we will have another tie here... But please prove me wrong
20:24:18 <bubulle> we shouldn't worry only about wheelchair accessibility
20:24:32 <gwolf> wheelchair, blind, dangers for hearing-impaired, ...
20:24:46 * bdale can get to ZRH with only 2 flights, there appear to be direct flights from Chicago that would work well
20:25:01 * gwolf has to disappear for two minutes, boss calling
20:25:06 <bubulle> yep, and I give a stronger point to ch for blind-ppl friendlyness here (advantages of a single place)
20:25:08 <gwolf> h01ger, Caroll: Please fill in!
20:25:14 <aigarius_lv> I have wlked the sidewalk from venue to the hotel and there sidewalk ramps are in perfect condition. The hostels do not have wheelchair accessibility, so people in wheelchairs will have to be hosted in a hotel. THe hotel has specially built rooms for that
20:25:35 <h01ger> gwolf, ack
20:25:47 <gismo_ch> bubulle: I should admit that we checked mostly for wheelchair accessibility, but I would be surprised there will be any problem for other kind of disabled people
20:26:16 <bdale> I agree that both bids seem to have adequate accessibility, but that the swiss option with everything at one venue not in a city center with the attendant traffic concerns, etc, might have a slight edge
20:26:55 <aigarius_lv> walking from the hostel or hotel to the main venue would be a challenge for a blind person, even though the trafic lights have the sound signal
20:26:56 <moray> is there appropriate accommodation for disabled people in Le Camp?  sorry if I forget reading this somewhere
20:26:59 <bdale> what about lodging for accessible concerns in swiss bid?
20:27:08 <bubulle> well, I shared aroom with a blind person at DC9 and witnessed the same person at DC10 and the single place option was definitely an advantage for him
20:27:28 <moray> I guess for at least one attendee we'd want a private room and special bathroom
20:27:52 <gismo_ch> moray, bdale: there are rooms for disabled people, including bathrooms and toilets
20:28:00 <bdale> good
20:28:26 <aroundthfur> another tie?
20:28:27 <gismo_ch> moray, bdale: with escalators, BTW
20:28:28 * bubulle ranks ch first here
20:28:42 <bdale> I rank ch first
20:28:42 <ultrt> what about accessibility of main transport to the venue? (busses, for ch?)
20:28:44 <aroundthfur> although one place for everything is a better option
20:29:04 <bdale> ultrt: private vehicle likely in both bids for at least some attendees
20:29:26 <gismo_ch> ultrt: usually the transportation system is disabled-person friendly
20:29:34 <ultrt> bdale: but then private vehicle would be a lot more effort in CH than in LV, due to the distance, correct?
20:29:39 <gismo_ch> ultrt: we need to tell them beforehand
20:29:41 <h01ger> #info accessibility: slight win for .ch though .lv is also well suitable
20:30:21 * gwolf is back
20:30:37 <bdale> ultrt: maybe .. there are many variables here.  I can say from personal experience that having someone local pick you up at the airport is a real benefit when needed
20:31:18 <h01ger> shall we have a 10 min break now that gwolf is back and the prio list is through?
20:31:20 <h01ger> #save
20:31:28 <aigarius_lv> if you opt for a 10€ taxi, they provide a consierge service in the airport :D
20:31:33 * bdale also has a new-found preference after last year for not having to cross borders between the airport and the venue, but we digress
20:31:43 <gwolf> yes, some breathing is much appreciated. 10 minute recess starts NOW
20:32:00 * bdale has a cat in his lap, so will not be moving
20:32:28 <Caroll> thanks, gwolf
20:32:29 <aigarius_lv> bdale, same
20:32:37 <ultrt> h01ger: unless ppl cannot really catch up with the traffic I'd avoid the break, mostly because it's getting lateish :)
20:32:39 <h01ger> #topic 10min break til 20:43
20:32:40 * gwolf has a penguin(-shaped mug) on his hand, so I'll stay here
20:32:47 <gwolf> but relaxing a bit the tension is good.
20:33:03 <h01ger> ultrt, as gwolf said: a bit relaxing
20:33:20 <Caroll> I'm going take some chocolate :D
20:33:21 <h01ger> get a tea, some music.
20:33:42 * ultrt would like dinner...
20:34:12 <moray> ultrt: oh, no dinner before the meeting?  beginner's mistake
20:34:16 <moray> :)
20:34:34 <ultrt> moray: it was too early :)
20:34:37 <aroundthfur> moray, i seemed to have forgotten that rule too!
20:34:50 <moray> ultrt: right, I learnt to eat early before these meetings though
20:35:01 <moray> as even if I wasn't hungry, I would be by the end
20:36:47 <gwolf> moray: for me it would be just *wrong* to have lunch that early. I still expect to be able to have lunch before 15:30 (which is a bit late-ish)
20:36:53 <ultrt> moray: fair point :) it was just a bit of a complicated day (traveling and such) but will catch up. hopefully. :)
20:37:37 <ultrt> gwolf: what's the time for you now?
20:38:01 <gwolf> 14:38
20:38:02 * bubulle eats more cheese
20:38:10 <gwolf> bubulle: that's so typical of you...
20:38:23 <ultrt> bubulle: and wine?
20:38:27 <Caroll> ooohhhh cheese would be nice
20:38:52 <ultrt> oh ok, so dinner by 22:30 for me... can do, if I manage to get there on time :)
20:39:23 * gwolf has a Maure cheese waiting at home, nicely aging a bit
20:42:22 * bubulle just finished a Mont d'Or
20:42:45 <gwolf> ok... We are finishing the break
20:42:48 * bdale polishes off some left-over chicken enchiladas his wife made
20:42:57 <Caroll> #topic Discussion
20:43:12 <gwolf> So, I'll open the channel to all of you, and we will have 10 minutes for general discusion
20:43:57 <gwolf> After those 10 minutes, we will moderate the channel again, try to reach consensus in 10 more minutes
20:44:09 <gwolf> and failing to achieve it, we might vote afterwards.
20:44:13 <gwolf> So, people, fire!
20:44:24 <aigarius_lv> has the Swiss team given any though/estimates on costs and options for formal diner and/or daytrip?
20:45:16 <gaudenz_ch> aigarius_lv: no, I think we'll think about this once it's clear how tight on money we are.
20:45:17 <cate_ch> aigarius_lv: no. there are many options (dinner on a lake ship, toward the alps, ...) but not yet costs
20:45:53 <gaudenz_ch> In the worst case we'll have no formal dinner and a datrip at basically no cost (easily possible from vaumarcus).
20:46:08 <moray> right, those don't matter for the decision IMO
20:46:23 <rudolfs_lv> how sunny/couldy/rainy is there in Alps?
20:46:25 <cate_ch> a "formal dinner" could be a barbecue on air
20:46:27 <bdale> I will note that the latvian day trip plans sound really fun, though
20:46:35 <gwolf> right, they are nice goodies - although they *do* drive the proposed money ~€15000 down for Latvia
20:46:42 <XTaran_ch> cate_ch: I'd really like that!
20:46:43 <gwolf> (as they did include it in their numbers)
20:46:47 <aigarius_lv> I am only saying that because after estimating costs here, we were quite surprised on how expensive it is to move, feed and entertain 300 people ;)
20:46:51 <pecisk_lv> btw, this is Cesis, my native town http://photo2.poga.lv/photos/0608/0811/alvis58/2055085182_b.jpg
20:46:56 <Caroll> yes, and we can't just go hiking for day trip
20:47:18 <moray> I'm still concerned about the significant number of people who want a single/better-quality room, and how will will work with Le Camp
20:47:35 <moray> it would be great if there was a proper hotel round the corner :/
20:47:41 <bdale> yes
20:47:52 <gwolf> My personal preference (which I try to listen to as little as possible) is to have everybody together in one isolated place
20:47:58 <bdale> the situation in HEL where most folks were in dorms but there was a very nice hotel maybe 200m away was very nice
20:48:08 <gwolf> But on this topic... Many people prefer the noise and fun in the middle of the city
20:48:29 <moray> I'm just concerned that a lot of people won't come, when the only really supported option is 6-8 person dormitories
20:48:31 <gismo_ch> moray: there is not, but there is a better option at <http://www.larouvraie.ch/>
20:48:45 <gwolf> ...so (partly answering to moray) I cannot say if either venue is better on that point alone
20:48:49 <Caroll> I just think that is difficult to keep 300 people happy being isolated for 10 days
20:48:58 <gaudenz_ch> moray: I agree but building one in 1 1/2 years is out of scope even for switzerland.
20:48:59 <Odyx_Mobile> Vaumarcus' Castle has _one_ extraordinary double-bed room though.
20:49:10 <moray> Odyx_Mobile: right :)
20:49:40 <cate_ch> moray: I count around 5 single rooms and 20 double rooms
20:50:02 <moray> cate_ch: it's a lot more than 5 (and more than 25) who have wanted this kind of thing
20:50:04 <gaudenz_ch> cate_ch: where did you find the single rooms? AFAIK there are no single rooms.
20:50:04 <h01ger> <h01ger> i'm sold. (not only because nature and stuff but also because swiss and trying to get all those sponsors for dc12, 13 and longer. i'm sorry about the economic crisis but i want to run a easy debconf. and a nice one too. and dc15 is riga would also be cool, or?
20:50:04 <h01ger> <h01ger> after years of rather somewhat uneasy debconfs, i would love to have an easy one. and true, swiss localteam can also go crazy.
20:50:15 <moray> cate_ch: aqnd indeed, I was told there were none before
20:50:28 <gwolf> I am tending to side towards riga... But I'm still very much middle-groundish
20:50:45 <moray> for me the most important thing about DebConf is the people
20:50:47 <cate_ch> gaudenz_ch: http://www.lecamp.ch/visite.php?lang=fr#  click on "Zwingli" building
20:50:51 <gwolf> h01ger: right, we could get more sponsors in Switzerland. But we need only half ot the money in Latvia
20:51:08 <moray> so I'm very concerned if this lack-of-nearby-hotel might mean people don't come
20:51:10 <h01ger> the only real downside i see in le camp is "not so optimal accom for people wanting privacy but no camping"..
20:51:28 <bubulle> I am tending to side towards ch, mostly, though I very much understand the weakest points it has
20:51:29 <aroundthfur> gwolf, but latvia has almost no local sponsors :(
20:51:30 <gwolf> I don't really care much about people going out to the city, but the Riga option is more flexible to accomodate any different needs - And there are always some different needs...
20:51:36 <gwolf> aroundthfur: right
20:51:42 <lucas> how far is the closest hotel?
20:51:43 <gwolf> aroundthfur: I'm not hard-decided on anything
20:51:45 <h01ger> gwolf, i absolutly expect matching the .ch budget in .ch to be easier than matching the .lv budget in .lv
20:51:49 <gaudenz_ch> cate_ch: You are right.
20:51:55 <moray> lucas: from wiki, 10 minutes driving in a private car
20:51:57 <h01ger> sadly
20:52:02 <gwolf> I'd _LOVE_ to have it in the nature
20:52:13 <pecisk_lv> aroundthfur, we can't promise local sponsors, but situation changes in economics could bring us one or two, we just don't know for sure
20:52:30 <bubulle> I think that I am *very* *very* much influenced by the perceived strength of ch local team and the feeling of SPOF-like team for lv (no offense intended at ppl other than aigarius_lv )
20:52:32 <gregoa> I think it boils down to a matter of personal taste between the campsite on the lake and the city centre with the university, where both have in themselves natural advantages and disadvantages. all other hard facts seem to balance each other out
20:52:39 <gwolf> but then again, I should not decide giving more than 1/300 to my personal preferences. And we have received some criticism in the past for choosing hard to reach places
20:52:49 <aroundthfur> pecisk_lv, i wasn't implying anything other that what you said. i know situation can change!
20:53:15 <Ganneff> "some criticism" is a nice understatement
20:53:18 <moray> gwolf: like I say, I'm just concerned it will be rather polarising amongst potential attendees
20:53:26 * h01ger hates it making this crisis+money comments but i've seen so many debconf budgets and sponsorship team shortages...
20:53:27 <gwolf> moray: precisely
20:53:51 <gwolf> hmm... The 10 minutes for "general arguing" are over
20:53:53 <moray> h01ger: Switzerland has potential sponsors, I'm still scared by the prices, though
20:53:56 <gwolf> so, I'll moderate the channel again
20:53:59 <cate_ch> gwolf: but we have a train every hour from the two airports (but on nights) and many people could reach CH directly with train (CH is central)
20:54:14 <ana> how much money from local sponsors the swiss team think they might get?
20:54:18 <gwolf> ...and we should try to talk towards consensus now
20:54:22 <gaudenz_ch> and the airports are closed at night anyway.
20:54:54 <gwolf> cate_ch: I meant "being stuck away in the middle of nowhere for two solid weeks", not "it took me ages to get there"
20:55:05 <Caroll> I'm in the dark and running out of battery ... if my power down, I'll try be back asap
20:55:06 * bubulle is still surprised that a place a few hundred meters away from a swiss train station to be considered as in the middle of nowhere
20:55:11 <gaudenz_ch> ana: hard to say. I don't feel comfortable to give more concrete numbers than I gave at the beginning of the meeting.
20:55:17 <ana> gaudenz_ch: oka
20:55:20 <gwolf> Caroll: that's a bleak image of Brazil you are giving ;-)
20:56:07 <h01ger> bubulle, people dont know the swiss train system
20:56:12 <gwolf> So... just looking at the points we discussed... Of course, not all points have the same weight - Most important ones are towards the top
20:56:17 <Caroll> gwolf, I need to feed the monkeys too, everybody is in the carnival :D
20:56:20 <bdale> bubulle: agreed
20:56:24 <h01ger> #save
20:56:29 <moray> bubulle: wiki says "It takes ~2 hours from GVA, ~3 hours from either ZRH or EAP (Basel), respectively, most of them by train, then a 30-minute bus and finally
20:56:32 <moray> a 10-minute walk: practical information (fr) from Le Camp website.
20:56:34 <moray> "
20:56:39 <h01ger> http://meetbot.debian.net/debconf-team/2012/debconf-team.2012-02-20-19.03.html has a summary, FWIW
20:56:42 <moray> bubulle: which implies *not* so close to a station?
20:57:01 <moray> bubulle: do you have other information?
20:57:18 <gwolf> Still, summing things together: Latvia won (on my hand-scribbled notebook) 6 points, Switzerland one, and there was one tie (weren't there two?!). But most "victories" were either by little, or on what I'd consider to be a nonvital or part-of-the-bid part
20:57:27 <gwolf> (i.e. this "being in the middle of the city"
20:57:28 <gwolf> )
20:58:12 <bubulle> well, on the map, Le Camp is about 500m away from Vaumarcus train station
20:58:43 <moray> < cate_ch2> bubulle: I think they closed the station (but maybe few trains) and replaced with a bus
20:58:50 <ultrt> somehow my general feeling is that LV will actually be "easier" than CH due to being a more "experimented" setup (city centre+uni+...)
20:58:55 <ana> gwolf: and not all the points have the same weight
20:58:56 <gwolf> The main points for Switzerland are the local team, the economic situation of the country. the main point for Latvia is the affordability... I think the rest of it is all linked to the nature of each bid, I don't know if you agree with me...
20:58:58 <gismo_ch> bubulle: bus station!
20:59:00 <gaudenz_ch> bubulle: Trains don't stop at Vaumarcus anymore. you have to take the bus in Yverdon or Gorgier - St. Aubin, but I basically agree with your feeling.
20:59:00 <ultrt> h01ger disagrees, though :)
20:59:03 <karora> I think either place will work fine.
20:59:21 <h01ger> <gwolf> The main points for Switzerland are the local team, the economic situation of the country. the main point for Latvia is the affordability... I think the rest of it is all linked to the nature of each bid, I don't know if you agree with me...
20:59:26 * h01ger agrees with gwolf
20:59:32 <karora> I'm tempted by the swiss bid because of the very strong local team, and the different kind of surroundings.
20:59:35 <moray> I'm not sure economic situation is only a plus
20:59:35 <gwolf> gaudenz_ch: If you are bored or thirsty at night, can you find something nice in Vaumarcus?
20:59:46 <aroundthfur> i must say that latvia in my opinion has a better setup venue
20:59:52 <bubulle> Geneve-Vaumarcus, 1h31 train, one train every hour
20:59:53 <karora> I remember in the past it was nice to have everyone in the venue and nothing else for miles.
20:59:55 <ultrt> gwolf: +1
20:59:57 <gismo_ch> gwolf: no (and not really in any other non-big Swiss city)
20:59:58 <gwolf> moray: right, it's a much bigger challenge, as the price almost doubles...
21:00:01 <h01ger> and would translate "economic situation" with "lets try to get more long term debconf sponsors too"
21:00:11 <aigarius_lv> to reduce the Single Point of Failure of our bid, if we win, the specific area will be delegated to specific people as detailed in our bid page
21:00:16 <ana> I inclined towards the swiss bid, it does not look so expensive for me. I think the local team is aware of the costs and they will make efforts to control that and I think they have a lot of more changes of getting local sponsors thst might balance it
21:00:19 <bubulle> gaudenz_ch: ah, ok, not obvious from CFF website
21:00:28 <gwolf> h01ger: we have always tried long-term sponsors. And we have some. But we cannot count on getting €50K from anybody
21:00:28 <gaudenz_ch> gwolf: I'm sure you'll find other bored and thirsty debconfers.
21:00:30 <ana> and bigger local team > *
21:00:48 <gaudenz_ch> but you have to stock your beer beforehand. No late night pizza place around.
21:00:52 <ultrt> gismo_ch: and little so even in big ones? ;) (ok, half kidding)
21:01:01 <gwolf> the local team difference... is very important
21:01:07 <moray> gwolf: right, that's more than our total sponsorship raise (non-govt) last year
21:01:08 <h01ger> ultrt, in that sense i actually i agree: we'll have interesting new problems at le camp for sure, just because we never had camping (as part of the usual stuff we'll have like always) :)
21:01:18 <aigarius_lv> the fact I have been doing most of the work so far has been more because the work so far is much faster and easier when done by a single person, not a comittee
21:01:23 <h01ger> gwolf, if we just get 1-3 more, that be awesome
21:01:30 <ana> also, we already have several debconfs in hostel, hotel and university. let's try something new :)
21:01:40 <moray> gwolf: actually, I'm concerned about both the local teams, who both said they wouldn't help to fix stuff from the previous debconf
21:01:58 <gismo_ch> moray: not true, please
21:02:01 <gwolf> aigarius_lv: beware of that attitude... That's what led me to a situation where I had done everything and then nobody was in the loop and then... DC6 happened
21:02:03 <moray> gwolf: when that question was written, it was expected to be a rhetorical question
21:02:13 <h01ger> aigarius_lv, but you're still the only one really knowing debconf, or? and the only one we know...
21:02:20 <aigarius_lv> gwolf, well aware of that
21:02:23 <bubulle> gwolf: and DC11 was very close to the same situation
21:02:50 <aigarius_lv> h01ger, correct, we would have people going to DC12, naturally, so that would improve the situation
21:03:09 <h01ger> aigarius_lv, sure, that will be the least / start :)
21:03:14 <ultrt> h01ger: which "local" swiss businesses are global enough to be interested in sponsoring a debconf in another country/continent?
21:03:29 <ultrt> and if they are, could they not sponsor it already? what makes you think we'd have a big retention?
21:03:31 <moray> gismo_ch: you didn't say "won't help in any circumstances", but I was still amazed to see either team saying that
21:03:54 <ultrt> the fact that they're richer doesn't mean they'll give money the year after
21:04:21 <pecisk_lv> gwolf, thanks
21:04:22 <gaudenz_ch> moray: I think we have to protect ourselfs and give priority to "our" debconf over doing work other should really be doing.
21:04:27 <gismo_ch> moray: agreed, but there is a difference in say "we will not help anyway" and "we will help if it benefits DebConf13" IMHO
21:04:33 <ultrt> also I have a suspect that the visibility of the event will be minimal for switzerland, while bigger for LV, so sponsorts might value that
21:04:37 <gaudenz_ch> But if time permits we'll of course help.
21:04:43 <h01ger> ultrt, the url posted here has some (credit suisse, other banks, etc) - and then, there needs to be an occasion to get in contact. debconf in .ch is such an occasion
21:04:47 <gismo_ch> ultrt: why minimal, if I may?
21:04:49 * karora wonders if any houses in the village are available for rental.
21:04:57 <gwolf> gaudenz_ch: still, we have often asked organizers of DCn to be organizers for DCn-1 to get a better view of what happens, what is needed
21:05:03 <ultrt> (aka: in ch nobody is going to notice debconf, while in lv it's in the capital centre, at least debcamp is bound to be noticed more)
21:05:20 <gwolf> of course, your involvement in DC13 would be bigger... But we need you (.ch, .lv, whatever) to be part of DC12 organizers
21:05:38 <bdale> ultrt: only if the local team works on it .. it's very easy to be invisible in a city
21:05:38 <gismo_ch> gwolf: <http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Switzerland/Bid/PriorityList#Experience_in_organizing_DebConfs> ?
21:05:42 <gwolf> I am with moray there, I was also surprised to see it was not clean "we are in"
21:05:55 <gaudenz_ch> gwolf: That's something else. I'm quite comitted to help on the debconf global team for debconf12 if dc13 will be in ch.
21:05:55 <gwolf> gismo_ch: I know :) But the answer to the rhetorical question still stands
21:06:02 <ultrt> gismo_ch: just because it's not happening anywhere "noticeable" and ch is used to quite more "visible" events (davos&c)
21:06:05 <h01ger> ultrt, i wouldnt say that it will unnoticed in .ch (not at all, also lots of countries are close), but for the free software scene in eastern europe it would definitly be a great(er?) event
21:06:13 <pecisk_lv> gwolf, we have worked with aigarius_lv on several projects and we can do the lifting for most of org things if necessary
21:06:43 <aroundthfur> pecisk_lv, carefull!
21:06:56 <aroundthfur> i know from experience that it's easier said than done that way!
21:07:45 <gwolf> aroundthfur: and here you are working with us, and I expect you continuing to!
21:07:59 <aroundthfur> gwolf, i will ;)
21:08:14 <aroundthfur> just saying two ppl isn't enough!
21:08:22 <gwolf> right
21:08:22 <h01ger> where are we now? ie when is this over?
21:08:29 <h01ger> this topic
21:08:33 <gwolf> heh, we are... avoiding to vote, it seems
21:08:34 <aigarius_lv> I am confident in my team being able to work on the event and be able to complete if I am hit by a bus a month from Debconf. Maybe not if I am hit by a bus tomorrow, however.
21:08:50 <h01ger> gwolf, to decide, me thinks
21:09:01 <gwolf> but I think we have all read what we will read
21:09:11 <gwolf> and going on will just lead us to walking in further circles
21:09:13 <bubulle> ack
21:09:15 <gwolf> #topic DECISION
21:09:21 <h01ger> ie, me suggests that we first make a "informal vote"
21:09:21 <aigarius_lv> we do have 7 people commited for the whole workload, not just two
21:09:29 <pecisk_lv> aroundthfur, well, from my expierence these things are fun. Dealing with some screwed up goverment projects in another hand - ugggh
21:09:59 <aroundthfur> pecisk_lv, right, i am just saying, not implying you can't do it :)
21:10:21 <h01ger> or do you really think everybody now should either say .ch or .lv and then we count and then meeting is done+over?
21:10:42 <gwolf> I find it hard to have a sound decision
21:10:49 <gwolf> both options are very strong IMO
21:11:04 <ultrt> gwolf: agreed, both options have very strong points
21:11:08 <gwolf> but... Yes, I think we can try and do h01ger's way
21:11:18 <gwolf> The thing is, we are not choosing between two comparable things
21:11:22 <bubulle> agreed, too. I think that there is no bid I would really dislike
21:11:23 <bdale> I, too, find this a more difficult decision than in the past because we have two plausible proposals that are very different in character
21:11:28 <gwolf> we are choosing between two different natures for DC13
21:11:29 <moray> both have many strong aspects, for me it's more important to support all types of attendees than do what we individually prefer, so I have a decision of my own
21:11:46 <h01ger> gwolf, my suggestion would NOT be to do like i described at 21:11 (the lastr thing i said here)
21:12:25 <h01ger> moray, to you think one of the two doesnt support all?
21:12:29 <bdale> moray: I understand your logic, and it would be easy to agree with, but I also care a lot about the focus being on making Debian itself better, and that leads me to like the notion of fewer "distractions"
21:12:31 <gwolf> h01ger: informal vote? Non-binding vote first?
21:12:32 <h01ger> well enough
21:12:36 <h01ger> gwolf, yes
21:13:02 <ultrt> +1 for non-binding vote
21:13:08 * karora currently has a weak preference for .ch
21:13:09 <gwolf> Ok, so please all committee people, state your vote now. Nothing will come out of it :)
21:13:12 * h01ger thinks bdale brought up a very good point
21:13:18 * gwolf has a weak preference for .lv
21:13:32 * h01ger has a preference for .ch
21:13:34 <moray> Latvia (although I like many things in the Swiss bid)
21:13:36 * ana has a preference for .ch
21:13:36 * bubulle has a preference for .ch (may develop if needed)
21:13:54 * Caroll has s preference for .lv
21:14:07 * ultrt has a preference for .lv, but is definitely happy to go to the .ch option too :)
21:14:20 <gwolf> forgoodnessake... 4 vs 4 so far
21:14:23 <gwolf> this is just unfair
21:14:30 <ana> marga is missing
21:14:34 <ana> marga: marga !!!
21:14:35 <gismo_ch> gwolf: I think you did it in purpose ;-)
21:14:36 <ultrt> gwolf: as you said they were two very strong ones
21:14:42 * bdale is pondering
21:14:47 <gwolf> #info it's frustrating to have two great and so balanced options
21:14:48 <ultrt> it's fair that preferences are even-ish
21:14:51 <gismo_ch> gwolf: you = the decisioners ;-)
21:15:01 <gwolf> ana: marga has not been part of the meeting, sadly...
21:15:32 <h01ger> so we are ten people on the comitee, but marga is absent? (and bdale pondering)
21:16:20 <h01ger> #save
21:16:28 <gwolf> caroll: are you caroll_ ?
21:16:35 <Caroll> gwolf, yep
21:16:39 <ultrt> at this point: is there any more info we could use to make the decision clearer? (aka: to send back the teams to investigate)?
21:16:41 <h01ger> Caroll, http://meetbot.debian.net/debconf-team/2012/debconf-team.2012-02-20-19.03.log.html has the log
21:16:42 * bubulle is still nnot pondering because having hard times buying moray's argument
21:16:44 <Caroll> sorry
21:16:58 <h01ger> #info so we are ten people on the comitee, but marga is absent? (and bdale pondering)
21:17:02 <h01ger> #save
21:17:13 <karora> I would like to know if there is short-term rentable housing in the villages near the .ch bid
21:17:30 <bubulle> karora: a first research I tried showed none
21:17:43 <gwolf> so, is there anybody with a _strong_ (rather than weak) preference?
21:17:45 <gismo_ch> karora: I can ask, but not now
21:17:47 <bubulle> not in Vaumarcus at least
21:18:12 <ana> gwolf: mine is strong :)
21:18:15 <bdale> bubulle: it's an interesting point.  I'm quite happy to sleep almost anywhere, and I suspect our swiss friends will have great food for us... but in the past, the ability to at least eat away from the main venue was important to me
21:18:21 <gismo_ch> bubulle: <mailto:info@debian.ch>
21:18:31 <moray> gwolf: I guess mine is strong, unless I get new information
21:18:54 <karora> If one had a car, how far to drive to the nearest place with restaurants from Vaumarcus?
21:19:10 <bdale> if the swiss bid's facility were, say, a few km from a place that had a hotel or three and some restaurants, it would be a slam-dunk for me to be in favor of the swiss bid
21:19:18 <gismo_ch> karora: probably it should be less than 30 minutes, depending on the kind of restaurant you want
21:19:20 <moray> bdale: right
21:19:20 <gwolf> bdale: right.
21:19:26 <gismo_ch> karora: and IIRC the castle has a restaurant inside
21:20:05 <bubulle> bdale: I probably still remember my first Debconf (the one that triggerred everything after) where I actually never went outside of the venue. As a consequence, I always valued places where everything is at the same place a lot
21:20:10 <ultrt> so basically we like .ch but we're not sure the location is ideal (at least not everybody is convinced) :)
21:20:15 <bdale> as it is, it feels like saying yes to the swiss bid has an element of "going all in" from the poker world... it seems like a fairly big bet to place on the orga team producing outstanding results.  I think they can do that, but the pressure will be high
21:20:23 <gaudenz_ch> bdale: I think it's just a few km's.
21:20:29 <ultrt> and we'd prefer some nature nearer to more services, which in .ch would be doable
21:20:31 <h01ger> bdale, <kevinmoilar> there's restaurants in every village around the lake, some very good
21:20:42 <bdale> ok
21:20:50 <moray> bdale: indeed
21:20:51 <gismo_ch> bdale: FWIW, maps.google.com shows at least 5 hotels in less than 10 km away
21:20:54 <ultrt> .ch team: maybe we could investigate more options for location, addressing these?
21:21:05 <gwolf> bubulle: yes, I also most enjoyed Brazil's setting
21:21:06 <aigarius_lv> bubulle, the first one I remember we slept on the floor of a school sports hall ;)
21:21:10 <gismo_ch> ultrt: define 'location'
21:21:17 <h01ger> its in le french part of le suisse
21:21:19 <bdale> gismo_ch: that's very reasonable in a place where a rented car could be parked fairly easily at the venue
21:21:20 <ultrt> this seems to be the most contentious point of your bid
21:21:22 <ultrt> gismo_ch: venue
21:21:23 <gwolf> bubulle: and that leads me to think .ch would be great...
21:21:25 <moray> gwolf: in Brazil, I (and many others) *did* go out several evenings
21:21:46 <Caroll> yes, Porto alegre is a big city here
21:21:49 <gwolf> ...but as Ganneff said, I'm understating that some people have felt locked out being in isolated (or semi-) places
21:21:58 <Caroll> you can just get a cab and go out
21:22:13 <gaudenz_ch> ultrt: There are other similar camps in switzerland but none of them is as nice as Vaumarcus or available to us alone.
21:22:14 <gwolf> Right, but we could just stay in there and not iven notice. But... Being as far away from everything as Le Camp is... seems to me a bit too much
21:22:17 <moray> how much is a taxi from Le Camp to these restaurants?  I fear a lot?
21:22:22 <ultrt> gismo_ch: it seems you have a great team, amazing opportunities for sponsorship, but half the people are not convinced of the venue (or better: the surroundings of the venue)
21:22:36 <gaudenz_ch> I'd consider Fiesch as similarly nice, but it's too big to rent the whole camp.
21:22:38 <bubulle> well, sorry to be a bit harsh (late, etc.) but it's not like we're organizing a student holiday party..:-)
21:22:40 <gwolf> gaudenz_ch: and anyway, we are past the point for checking a whole new bid
21:22:58 <gwolf> moray: I fear Swiss taxis will be expensive to look at.
21:23:00 <gismo_ch> ultrt: I am staying outside of this kind of discussions on purpose, because I was clear on the fact that we know how *different* is our bid
21:23:07 <h01ger> #topic DECISION is now running since almost 15min (Meeting topic: DebConf13 decision meeting)
21:23:21 <h01ger> or should i've said stalled? :)
21:23:26 <gismo_ch> moray: 'Le Camp' has a bus, FWIW
21:23:31 <gismo_ch> moray: but I do not remember the prices
21:23:33 <h01ger> #save
21:23:35 <Caroll> yes, bubulle , but I think that go out for beer and food help keep our sanity
21:23:54 <bdale> gismo_ch: the part that's different in your bid is very compelling to me .. I'm just trying to decide if I can really live with the perceived limitations or not
21:24:03 <gismo_ch> bdale: thanks
21:24:15 <ultrt> gismo_ch: yes, it is different, and in a way that is both interesting to many and scaring to others :)
21:24:18 <gwolf> There's always, no matter what, people who think the food we provide is shit
21:24:24 <moray> indeed
21:24:25 <ultrt> which is its beauty of course, as well
21:24:36 <gwolf> and having them committed to that food for all that time is... too much IMO
21:24:46 <bdale> to be completely open about it, I've also visited switzerland several times in the past but never been to latvia, so the "see some place new" instinct me wants the latvian bid to be great too
21:24:48 <gwolf> I don't care (that much) about not having luxury lodging
21:25:19 <moray> gwolf: I don't care much about it myself.  though I'm not very keen on a 6-8 person room, either
21:25:19 <ultrt> I have a strong preference for food :p
21:25:25 <gismo_ch> bdale: if you want my opinion, I can drive my H-D to Latvia for a bit more than to Vaumarcus (and it will be my 4th DebConf by motorbike)
21:25:27 <moray> gwolf: especially not for 2 weeks
21:25:29 * h01ger wonders if we should do a vote now, so everybody gets to revote/resay and it looks less like bdale deciding
21:25:31 <ultrt> (actually, if I want any I have to leave *now*) :)
21:25:54 <gwolf> right... So, lets try to do a binding vote now
21:26:21 <gwolf> I think I am a stronger believer in .lv (although I'd still love to go to Le Camp)
21:26:26 <bdale> h01ger: thanks .. I am completely uncomfortable with the notion of being the deciding vote, fwiw
21:26:26 * gwolf votes Latvia
21:26:37 * bubulle votes .ch
21:26:39 <moray> Latvia
21:26:39 * Caroll votes Latvia
21:26:49 * h01ger votes le camp
21:26:53 <ultrt> latvia
21:26:54 * ana votes .ch
21:27:02 * karora votes Vaumarcus
21:27:05 * bdale votes .ch
21:27:19 <moray> are we done?
21:27:32 <ultrt> 5 to 4 for ch, it seems
21:27:32 <h01ger> #info yes we are done :)
21:27:34 <aigarius_lv> Congratulations, to .ch team
21:27:37 <gwolf> Ok, so we are 5-4 for Switzerland, and thanks for h01ger and karora for making it harder on my tired brain to count votes :-)
21:27:41 <pecisk_lv> congrats
21:27:41 <Caroll> yep, all 9 voted
21:27:48 <gwolf> This was a close one
21:27:49 <aigarius_lv> Poor sods
21:27:50 <karora> gwolf: My pleasure :-)
21:27:55 <gwolf> Congratulations to the Swiss team!
21:27:58 <h01ger> congratulations to the .lv team, enjoy 2013! :-) and please think about running again!
21:28:00 <gwolf> And great thanks to the Latvian one
21:28:00 <karora> They were both great bids.
21:28:01 <gismo_ch> aigarius_lv: thaks
21:28:04 <moray> *_ch: Congratulations
21:28:04 <ultrt> thanks a lot everybody, and congratulations to the swiss
21:28:10 <ana> aigarius_lv: thanks! hope ting there in 2015 or 2014 =)
21:28:13 <gwolf> I hope to go to Riga in the mid-future thouygh!
21:28:13 <ultrt> .lv would love to visit Riga, please run again!!
21:28:16 <bdale> aigarius_lv: so, I will count on you helping me to find some other excuse to visit latvia some day!
21:28:24 <ultrt> see you in ch (and managua before)
21:28:33 <ultrt> running now for food, but talk to you soon!
21:28:39 <ultrt> have a good $time-of-day
21:28:46 <h01ger> good luck & enjoy & merci bien to the swiss team!
21:28:50 <aigarius_lv> please visit Latvia, so you have less fear for Debconf15 decision meeting :)
21:29:01 <Tincho> congratulations, .ch!
21:29:07 <Heiserhorn_ch> thank u everybody
21:29:07 <ultrt> night!!
21:29:08 <bubulle> really, congrats to the lv team. I have to admit I wouldn't have bet a single centime on aigarius_lv proposal back in August and you made it really really a great option
21:29:11 * gwolf can still make it 15:30 for somewhat edible
21:29:13 <gwolf> (well, 15:40)
21:29:25 <Tincho> that was a tight one
21:29:26 <XTaran_ch> aigarius_lv: I'll hope for DC15 in Latvia, too. :)
21:29:47 <moray> and I hope the Swiss team can now find some great ways to work around the worries some of us expressed :)
21:29:47 * Tincho wants to see Latvia too
21:29:50 <Ganneff> someone #endmeeting
21:29:50 * h01ger definitly too
21:29:52 <gaudenz_ch> thanks everybody.
21:29:53 <aroundthfur> congratulations to the ch team, lv i wish you all the best for dc15 :)
21:29:54 <gwolf> #endmeeting