19:12:23 #startmeeting 19:12:23 Meeting started Tue Jul 5 19:12:23 2011 UTC. The chair is nattie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:12:23 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 19:12:26 \o/ 19:12:36 all hail The Nattie 19:12:41 we're sticking the final numbers bit on the end 19:12:42 ahoy matey 19:12:47 * aroundthfur bows 19:12:48 #topic day trip 19:12:55 rafting 19:12:58 what's wrong with that 19:13:14 i guess we *are* opening this can of worms now... 19:13:23 as I said 19:13:26 I don't know who put it in the meeting agenda 19:13:27 the agenda says "day trip coordinator, with help from Zoran at tourist office" 19:13:33 those who don't wanna go to rafting can watch us do rafting 19:13:38 drink, eat whatever they want 19:13:50 AbsintheSyringe: great, so next topic? 19:13:52 or go to monastary 19:13:53 AbsintheSyringe: it's not all about "want" -- not everyone *can* go rafting 19:14:10 AbsintheSyringe: maybe you should order it differently and finish the controversy? 19:14:13 ok 19:14:16 then like this 19:14:17 nattie: I don't see how useful progress is going to be made on finding a local coordinator during the meeting, unless someone volunteers immediately 19:14:18 those who don't want to go to monastery can go rafting ;-) 19:14:22 first group who doesn't wanna go rafting 19:14:28 and yes, as was described long ago, rafting is a secondary activity 19:14:31 goes to the monastery 19:14:38 then we all meet up at the rafting 19:14:41 adnan just needs to learn to follow the form of words he agreed a long time ago :) 19:14:43 we'll end rafting by then 19:14:46 and we'll all meet up at the 19:14:53 moray, rafting thing we were at 19:14:57 what's wrong with that? 19:15:08 and third option is...? ;) 19:15:08 AbsintheSyringe: nothing is wrong besides saying "the day trip is rafting" 19:15:12 how far apart are the rafting venue and the monarstery, anyway? 19:15:19 moray, didn't say that 19:15:21 *monastery 19:15:26 um, yes you did, actually 19:15:37 nattie, I think by the time they are done with that we'll be done rafting 19:15:38 nattie: i liked "monarsetery" 19:15:46 and end at the finishing point with rafting 19:15:49 then 19:15:51 19:52:02 as AbsintheSyringe seemed to agree before, rafting should be an extra event at a different time 19:15:52 we'll all meet 19:15:57 enjoy drinks and food 19:15:58 is the daytrip (monastery) wheelchair-safe? 19:16:05 zobel, yep 19:16:18 just asking. 19:16:19 rafting is obviously not 19:16:31 so that's why we have more options for one occasion 19:16:32 19:53:44 AbsintheSyringe: after or during day is fine, but it shouldn't be advertised as the main event, and shouldn't be advertised as an "option" even 19:16:35 I think that should work 19:16:44 tiago, I think 19:16:53 rafting should be chosen as an "option" 19:17:05 as mainly we'll go to monastery 19:17:08 i think the thing is that the monastery should be proposed as the main trip, and the rafting as an alternative 19:17:09 those who don't want to go 19:17:14 we'll meet up at rafting end point 19:17:20 meanwhile rafting people will end their rafting 19:17:26 nattie, i agree on that 19:17:27 and we'll all meet for food and drinks 19:17:29 sounds good to me 19:17:36 good, i'm just rememebering what we have agreed before, it doesn't really matter to me what goes from now 19:17:38 that's what I'm saying 19:17:41 everyone good on that one? 19:17:47 mhm 19:17:50 that is what AbsintheSyringe is saying, he just has harsh words sometimes.. 19:17:57 AbsintheSyringe: Yes, but we should advertise the main activity as a trip to a nice monasterium 19:17:58 aroundthfur, tnx :) 19:18:06 gwolf, sure 19:18:09 and while we are there, some people might be interested in a side activity 19:18:09 no problem with that 19:18:12 which happens to be rafting 19:18:19 I understand your enthusiasm 19:18:20 #agreed Main daytrip will be to the monastery, rafting will be proposed as an alternative to the main trip 19:18:21 exactly 19:18:26 that's what I've been saying this whole time 19:18:34 however when I say something you understand it as "we gonna do that" 19:18:35 :D 19:18:36 AbsintheSyringe: (not quite... Wording matters. A lot!) 19:18:41 nattie: monastery plus walk to old ruined town I think 19:18:42 I'm giving out options 19:18:43 come on :) 19:18:46 do we have a coordinator? 19:18:47 nattie: like I said on the list a while ago 19:18:51 moray: short form... 19:18:54 nattie, no, as he's not here 19:19:02 tourist board will have to do it 19:19:28 who is the person who would do it otherwise? 19:19:29 well, we should find a coordinator, but we can start on the details anyway 19:19:36 nattie, i can do it, if no one else will 19:19:45 aroundthfur: you're doing quite a lot already 19:19:52 best if it's someone who speaks the local language as 'coordinator' 19:19:57 sure 19:20:00 I'm happy to (help) sort out what happens though 19:20:02 i know, but if no one will do this it might as well be me :D 19:20:03 I was thinking to set DIVA as coordinator between those two 19:20:05 but i'll keep you in the back of my head (with all the other strange things rattling around there) 19:20:10 aroundthfur, you can't do it, you don't have time 19:20:34 anyone else from localteam? 19:20:35 AbsintheSyringe: you mean as coordinator between us and the tourist board? 19:20:42 nattie: yes 19:20:49 nattie: but a local team person is better I think 19:20:58 moray, i agree 19:21:03 nattie: I still expect we can get someone, their exams should be finishing now 19:21:34 I guess I could take this as my topic, and I will try harder to find a local team person/people? 19:21:34 nattie, yes 19:21:35 shall we agree that a coordinator will be drafted soon and filled in asap? 19:21:38 as I have been pushing it already 19:21:42 Zlatan said he would do it 19:21:48 moray, let me find someone who will "willingly" do it 19:21:55 put as it this 19:22:02 we would set DIVA to this 19:22:04 shall we just draft Zlatan? 19:22:06 otherwise we'll get someone to do this 19:22:08 nattie, NO 19:22:29 nattie, srsly no, he said he would do it and then even show up for meeting 19:22:32 negative points 19:22:33 nattie: info: Zlatan or AbsintheSyringe will find someone 19:22:33 no way 19:22:34 aroundthfur: well, that would count under me "trying harder", if you find someone 19:22:44 tiago, no, rm -rf Zlatan from there 19:22:52 moray, :) 19:22:57 aroundthfur: but I could also start contacting the tourist board guy directly, with what I proposed on the list 19:23:11 . 19:23:14 whatever, I'll take care of it 19:23:15 moray, yes, if you need help i am your guy 19:23:19 hahahah 19:23:24 so everyone will take care of it.. 19:23:25 sweet 19:23:29 moray: that sounds like a good initial plan, as the tourist board guy would be knowledgeable 19:23:32 um 19:23:33 AbsintheSyringe: *you* really have too many topics :) 19:23:43 moray, I do, but I have good contacts 19:23:44 let's settle on moray contacting the tourist board guy, initially 19:23:55 AbsintheSyringe is true superman ;) 19:23:58 AbsintheSyringe: right, but let's say I'll coordinate for now, including with you 19:23:59 igustin, there you go, tnx :) 19:24:05 and then we can find someone on localteam to take over coordination once they've been found 19:24:06 AbsintheSyringe: that saves you having it on your to-do list actively 19:24:12 * aroundthfur agrees with moray 19:24:18 #action moray to contact Zoran from the tourist board initially 19:24:27 moray, no you'll coordinate group that's going to monastery aroundthfur will coordinate the group going to rafting 19:24:30 how about that? 19:24:34 all with help of Zoran 19:24:47 topic finished, let's move on 19:24:54 yeah.. 19:24:59 local team report? 19:25:04 AbsintheSyringe: Pressure is high. But please drop that way of speaking 19:25:07 AbsintheSyringe: you're not chairing this meeting 19:25:10 it leads to no agreement. 19:25:15 wtf 19:25:19 you cannot decide on behalf of everybody. 19:25:28 gwolf++ 19:25:43 but, I think we *are* done on that topic for now anyway 19:25:58 yes, i'm just drafting an agreed for the minutes 19:26:15 btw, I'm sitting next to aroundthfur he can confirm my voice is safe and sound :) 19:26:26 #agreed moray to coordinate monastery group, aroundthfur to coordinate rafting group, with assistance from tourist board 19:26:31 #topic local team report 19:26:37 ok 19:26:38 aaaaaaaand localteam 19:26:41 so the only thing 19:26:42 we would need from you 19:26:47 because we are under a lot of pressure 19:26:52 from govt + everybody else 19:26:56 we need final numbers 19:26:59 that's all we need really 19:27:00 yeah 19:27:03 so please 19:27:06 minister called today 19:27:10 asking for these 19:27:17 so ... 19:27:21 please let's have these tonight 19:27:22 yeah, we really need those! 19:27:27 we will 19:27:29 they told me to even call them after meeting 19:27:32 AbsintheSyringe: we kind of have them, the big blocker now is that no one had actually closed penta -- hopefully that happened today though (???) 19:27:34 even tho it'll be 10/11PM 19:27:55 define "closed penta"? 19:28:00 moray: that will happen today 19:28:01 moray, darst said he did 19:28:09 darst has been revising numbers, but was called away 19:28:14 Ganneff: darst sent me a request for validation so no changes in some kind of way are allowed 19:28:19 Ganneff: done the end-of-reconfirmation stuff so that numbers are locked down 19:28:23 I have not been able to check it, but will do it today 19:28:32 aha 19:28:32 so we have something fairly close to final numbers, but will have them after his return 19:28:33 Ganneff: obviously people can confirm later, but then they're on their own for arrangements 19:28:44 (we dont want to forbid reconfirm, its just for sponsored) 19:28:47 right. fine. 19:28:56 listen, having at least approximate numbers and everything is good 19:29:01 and we need to forcibly convert "please select one" to basic, etc. 19:29:01 (btw, did the travel money already got on? im kind of late, sorry) 19:29:02 for them *we don't have anything* 19:29:09 Ganneff: shortly 19:29:12 change +/-10 is ok 19:29:15 nattie: great, thanks 19:29:35 ok, so that wasn't really a localteam report 19:29:42 #info localteam very strongly requests final numbers 19:29:52 YES! 19:29:53 and yes, we will oblige ASAP 19:29:56 it is a report, things we are having probelms with 19:29:57 AbsintheSyringe: are you in Banja Luka yet? 19:30:07 moray, no I'm in Tuzla sitting next to aroundthfur 19:30:12 moray, going there next week 19:30:17 AbsintheSyringe: yes, thought so, my question was really when :) 19:30:29 moray, whenever you want? 19:30:32 tell me when I have to be there 19:30:35 and I'll be there 19:30:38 I was planning 13th 19:30:40 but if that's too late 19:30:43 ... just tell me 19:30:44 srsly 19:30:53 it really is like that 19:30:57 AbsintheSyringe: for purposes of penta, should we put you as 16-31? 19:31:00 AbsintheSyringe: there is no standard rule, but I'm sure you'll find useful stuff whenever you get there 19:31:01 you want me to be there on 11th? 19:31:21 nattie, put in 13th 19:31:28 let's make it official 19:31:31 I'll be there on 13th 19:31:32 ok? 19:31:35 this is purely for purposes of penta 19:31:38 moray, ^ 19:31:49 AbsintheSyringe: 13th would be great, I'm sure, if you can schedule that 19:31:53 by all means, be there from the 13th, but this is for a different purpose 19:31:54 nattie, right I sent that info to richard 19:31:59 i know 19:32:00 moray, scheduled :) 19:32:03 from what i see, Phil Hands arrives at 13th. 19:32:04 that's it 19:32:10 zobel, I'll pick him up 19:32:12 I arrive 16th 19:32:21 moray, banja luka or zagreb? 19:32:24 so maybe around that time would be a good idea 19:32:24 Zagreb 19:32:31 and Banja Luka same day 19:32:34 (but via bus) 19:32:50 moray, AbsintheSyringe: h01ger and me will arrive 17th evening at banja luka airport 19:32:59 zobel, I'll pick you up 19:33:12 zobel, h01ger has my phone no just remind me a day before 19:33:15 we're arriving on the 17th around 5pm in Zagreb 19:33:20 nattie: are we still keeping penta for official dates? I think I put 17th there as earliest allowed 19:33:25 great 19:33:27 nattie: but I'm really 16th 19:33:30 any idea on shuttles yet? 19:33:37 moray, sorry Zagreb is too late for me you'll have to do shuttle/bus 19:33:40 * gwolf hates airlines :( 19:33:47 AbsintheSyringe: for purposes of penta i'll put you as the 17th, and stick in a note that you're arriving on the 13th 19:33:58 as I said I'll pick up Jimmy as well 19:34:08 FYI I'm a menace on the road :P 19:34:21 see how many days of DebConf you can keep your licence 19:34:23 nattie, sounds good, tnx 19:34:32 moray, it was taken away today 19:34:33 :D 19:34:36 but ... fsck it :D 19:34:37 i'll bring stuff up under AOB 19:34:47 #topic travel money 19:34:53 um ... 19:34:54 Ganneff: speak 19:35:03 thats from me: do we have more money? to pay all in queue "b" i need 5601 19:35:04 AbsintheSyringe: we can bring other stuff up under AOB - shan't be long 19:35:15 to fixup errors people mentioned to me, its a total of 5801 eur 19:35:20 nattie, sure, no worries 19:35:33 so its a question for the beancounters if we can afford that 19:35:41 for many people it gets slightly urgent now to know it 19:35:45 also, while at it: 19:35:59 what do we do with those that didnt reconfirm cos they have no travel money assigned yet? 19:36:02 late reconfirm allow? 19:36:16 it are 10 people 19:36:17 best would be to make a 'final' decision now 19:36:22 is this for sponsored or non? 19:36:26 thats sponsored 19:36:27 where 'final' is "unless we win the lottery" 19:36:40 we can do two things, i think: 19:36:45 * nattie imagines debconf faithfully filling in a lottery slip each week 19:36:46 then we could remove the uncertainty -- either we're happy to give it *now* or not 19:36:48 have the money and tell all of em its fine (and allow reconfirm) 19:36:57 or we can kick all out, as we dont have it 19:37:02 darst: how is money? 19:37:07 Ganneff: yeah 19:37:18 hi 19:37:22 just got back 19:37:26 \o/ 19:37:35 money is as in my last email 19:37:47 darst: is giving more travel money obviously-ok, obviously-stupid, or Further Discussion? 19:37:54 €54k of spending power now 19:38:05 5800 eur is maximum there, jftr 19:38:08 €16k to €21k surplus now (excluding local money). 19:38:43 16k projected surplus is not huge -- at almost every other DebConf there have been unexpected late costs 19:38:50 yeah 19:39:01 darst: still some unclear stuff re money needed for transportation from paris to Banja Luka 19:39:02 so would be "ok" to do it but I wouldn't push it 19:39:17 its either "ok" or "not ok", we dont have much more... 19:39:27 zobel: is the €3k quote each way still the best one, or more than that ? 19:39:58 Ganneff: will you be very upset if the answer is "not ok"? I agree it's better just to say "no" now than keep uncertainty longer, due to this year's setup 19:40:01 (and honestly, i would expect about a 1k eur or so in cancels, due to the late time, but i wont promise that) 19:40:12 darst: zack has the latest numbers. dunno 19:40:16 moray: no, i will be upset only if the answer is "we are unable to decide" 19:40:33 moray: leaving all of them up in the fog more. a clear ok or "sod off" is much better NOW 19:40:49 can someone remind me how much travel money we already gave out? -- and for interest how much debconf newbies gave? 19:40:50 (as bad as a not ok is, but its something) 19:40:51 zobel: right now €6k EUR total is budget for that shipping, and it sounds like it'll be less than that 19:40:52 darst: i still try to persue him to drive by car, that would be in total maybe 2k? 19:41:02 36.767,50EUR 19:41:03 darst: yes. 19:41:08 zobel: so it sounds like it might go down, not up 19:41:27 darst: h01ger and zack know. but they have dinner probably 19:41:30 darst: but from previous form we are still (sadly) likely to think of another expensive item we didn't expect 19:41:33 h01ger: ^ 19:41:48 and debconf newbies is at 2.8k eur 19:41:53 what about a "no" with a minor chance to have some reibursements after with no promises? 19:42:01 tiago: that's a bit too vague 19:42:06 darst: based on that, my feeling is "not ok" to give out more, and better to just say no therefore 19:42:10 we have already given a good amount 19:42:12 * darst would basically say "no" 19:42:33 let's agree that we do not give more travel sponsorship at this point 19:42:36 tiago: it is always "minor chance for more", but writing things that way to end-users isn't helpful 19:42:39 we would like a nice surplus for next year, since this is supposed to be "cheap" 19:42:44 darst: that's also true, yes 19:42:45 moray: agreed, yes 19:42:50 and next year is Far Away 19:42:55 so, with reluctance, no? 19:42:58 ok. fine. a nok then 19:43:05 #agreed No further travel sponsorship will be given 19:43:08 ill send out the bad mails then 19:43:13 €10k is the smallest surplus I would want in a normal year 19:43:14 sadly 19:43:14 Ganneff: thanks again for working on this 19:43:29 #topic AOB 19:43:35 ok 19:43:41 (since we already agreed final numbers will be given ASAP) 19:43:48 I was just wondering what are the other things that Debian will be giving money out to 19:44:02 um, actually i have a further item 19:44:05 t-shirts? 19:44:10 for example pro/corp attendees what's happening with that one 19:44:13 nattie: Debian Day: registration needed or not? 19:44:16 nattie, we are working on it 19:44:17 not to seem like a bit of a nag about this, but vanja is clearly MIA 19:44:20 aroundthfur: ok 19:44:22 nattie, I'll take care of that once i"m in Banja Luka 19:44:23 next week 19:44:54 ISTR in previous years we had some very simplified registration for Debian Day, but i only know of this in passing 19:44:59 do we have an emergency contact re: tshirts? 19:45:12 gwolf, yes 19:45:21 AbsintheSyringe, has a contact for that 19:45:28 re: DebianDay, I'd expect that, if the president is there, we will need to ensure some basic conditions on security/access control? 19:45:31 nattie: we have sometimes, yes, and originally this year wanted that, then said that they didn't 19:45:34 nattie: the question i understood: do we need it? 19:45:35 please don't we'll take care of that next week 19:45:38 besides final numbers 19:45:43 re president present and so on... 19:45:43 darst, final numbers? 19:45:51 we need to know 19:46:00 pro/corp is that money going to hotels? 19:46:03 or ...? 19:46:07 as it's not fair 19:46:09 gwolf, we can just ask people to sign at the entrance.. 19:46:10 can you reserve every room we have booked ? 19:46:11 generally speaking 19:46:24 for govt. to give us free accommodation and us to earn money on that 19:46:52 original plan was to 19:47:03 for them to pay directly to hotels 19:47:07 that plan changed 19:47:12 but still that's my opinion 19:47:25 we should pay hotels fee for those attendees directly 19:47:25 AbsintheSyringe: then you told us they couldn't pay the hotels, and that the government just paid it all 19:47:40 I guess darst's budget is based on having that money now 19:47:44 moray, I did, it was feasible but it was fairly complicated 19:47:51 that was our desire, you told us it couldn't happen, so we did not plan to do that 19:47:56 this is all stuff from months ago 19:48:17 If we don't need to register people for DebianDay, we can even not sign people at the entrance 19:48:20 AbsintheSyringe: technically they pay a registration fee, not for accommodation 19:48:27 moray, which is what? 19:48:38 AbsintheSyringe: the 450/1000 is a registration fee 19:48:48 moray, ok ... 19:49:06 still is any of the money we gonna generate from pro/corp gonna pay hotel fees or not 19:49:09 gwolf, i agree..a mail to debianday@ or a signature at the entrance is the same.. 19:49:18 as govt. was asking questions 19:49:23 AbsintheSyringe: we *did* originally suggest to use part of that for hotels, but for some months we had instead been planning on using that money elsewhere 19:49:26 the last thing they wanna is 19:49:37 but if we want to have a number of ppl that came to dday then i guess it's easier this way (more accurate number) 19:49:40 US getting money they are giving out for *free* 19:49:49 moray, I know I remember 19:49:53 I'm updating what's happening now 19:50:02 their argument is absolutely valid 19:50:26 I mean think about it 19:50:33 but i think pre-registering is sensible 19:50:41 in the end I would be the one who would suffer for this and I don't want that 19:51:07 they are not paying for accom, since they could have gotten that for free, they are paying to help make DebConf succeed long-term 19:51:08 nattie, pre-registration? I'm trying to talk final numbers right now :-/ 19:51:15 AbsintheSyringe: but you should have told the govt immediately that they were not paying "for accommodation" 19:51:23 AbsintheSyringe: for debian day - a mail would suffice 19:51:32 moray, someone has to pay for it 19:51:37 AbsintheSyringe: they pay a registration fee, and get free accommodation -- like all the people who ask for the registration to be sponsored/waived 19:51:40 the thing I'm trying to explain here is following 19:51:48 and if it wasn't going to help debconf, they wouldn't pay the _registration_ fee to debconf, most likely 19:52:06 moray: I agree that our logic is somewhat twiested 19:52:17 *they* (govt) is paying for hotels for *free* (sorry but nothing in this world is free) now if we're taking that money to debian funds we are making money of what they are originally paying for 19:52:24 that's what I'm trying to explain 19:52:26 gwolf: I was originally loudly in favour of just telling people to book accomm directly 19:52:41 gwolf: but now we're 10 days before the conference 19:52:52