20:00:01 <moray> #startmeeting
20:00:01 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Mar 22 20:00:01 2011 UTC.  The chair is moray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:00:01 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
20:00:12 <moray> do I need to end for you to fiddle meetbot?
20:00:24 <moray> It's now time for the decision meeting.
20:00:46 <h01ger> i dont think so. /me cheers moray for starting sharp on time! :)
20:01:04 <moray> #chair h01ger
20:01:04 <MeetBot> Current chairs: h01ger moray
20:01:19 <moray> #chair gwolf
20:01:19 <MeetBot> Current chairs: gwolf h01ger moray
20:01:24 <moray> Please introduce yourself if you are watching.
20:01:31 <moray> It's suggested that people associated with a bid team temporarily change their nick to end '_br' or '_ni'.
20:01:56 <moray> jeremybphone: [you just missed this:] Please introduce yourself if you are watching.
20:01:57 * karora introduces himself as "watching"
20:02:07 <marcot_br> Hi.  I'm Marco, I'm from the Bid of Belo Horizonte.  I'm a Debian Developer since 2010, and have been to DebConfs 8 and 10.
20:02:18 <moray> #chair darst
20:02:18 <MeetBot> Current chairs: darst gwolf h01ger moray
20:02:19 <h01ger> Bid teams choose two people each to have voice on the main channel. Others can speak on #dc12-discuss.
20:02:20 * darst is watching
20:02:25 * marga is also here.
20:02:28 * vorlon is watching :)
20:02:30 * tiago watching
20:02:31 * tassia is watchnig
20:02:32 * jcristau watches
20:02:34 * gwolf is watching
20:02:37 * luisurib1 watching
20:02:40 * gregoa is watching
20:02:41 * bubulle tries not watch
20:02:44 <moray> those aren't really 'introductions' :p
20:02:48 * fcestrada_ni watching and supporting the Nicaragua's bid ;)
20:02:49 * Ganneff wants +m
20:02:49 * gwolf forces bubulle into watching
20:02:50 * tassia is watching
20:02:53 * xamanu_ni is watching
20:02:58 <rafael_br> Hello I'm Rafael, from Belo horizonte bid. I maintain a package on debian since 2010, but never been to a debconf
20:02:58 * blarson_ watching
20:02:59 * leogg_ni and n0rman_ni will have voice for the Nicaragua bid
20:03:08 * karora Went to his first DebConf in 2004 and has been back every time. Is that better?
20:03:16 <altmas5> watching
20:03:17 <moray> karora: yes :)
20:03:18 <h01ger> so bid teams, who of you will br presenting? marcot_br, rafael_br ?
20:03:19 * kadejo_ni watching
20:03:22 * jimbodoors_ni is watching
20:03:27 <marcot_br> h01ger: Yes, you're right.
20:03:30 * tiago Went to his first DebConf in 2004 and has been back every time. Is that better?
20:03:31 <moray> h01ger: yes, can you handle the voicing?
20:03:37 <tiago> thanks karora
20:03:44 <eveevans> watching, and supporting Nicaragua team
20:03:46 <vorlon> I too am a serial DebConf attendee, since 2004 :)
20:03:53 <h01ger> rafael_br, you too?
20:03:54 <jimbodoors_ni> eveevans, good :)
20:03:55 <rafael_br> yes
20:04:12 <Ganneff> h01ger: +v, not +o
20:04:13 <h01ger> "nicaragua", who from you?
20:04:18 * bubulle is vorlon's twin
20:04:19 * moray is a DebConf attendee since DebConf3 in Oslo
20:04:25 <leogg_ni> h01ger: me and n0rman_ni
20:04:26 <h01ger> 7voice Ganneff - does it matter?
20:04:26 <jcristau> i was only at dc 7 and 10
20:04:36 <moray> h01ger: makes it clearer yes
20:04:51 <Ganneff> h01ger: they do have a very different function, yes. and all +@ would be the ones actually running it.
20:05:00 * h01ger convinced
20:05:03 <Ganneff> while the +v are bid teams.
20:05:04 * jimbodoors_ni is watching in is part of the local team Nicaragua
20:05:35 * h01ger waves at watchers & bidders and smiles
20:05:42 <moray> As you all know, this meeting is intended to make a decision between the two bids.  This is never easy, but we try to do this by consensus.
20:06:04 <moray> Everyone needs to look what will work better for DebConf in 2012, it's not about which country is better :)
20:06:49 <moray> Do the bid teams have the materials ready for the next part of the meeting?
20:06:50 <darst> managua team, have your costs changed since moray's email ?
20:07:14 <n0rman_ni> no, we have same costs
20:07:20 <moray> I saw the link for the answers for the next part from Brazil: http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/Bids/Brazil/BeloHorizonte
20:07:31 <moray> but do Managua have their answers written?  and posted somewhere?
20:07:50 <leogg_ni> moray: the priority list?
20:08:32 <h01ger> but we want the answers posted here, not only links?!
20:08:51 <h01ger> leogg_ni, yes - see agenda linked in topic
20:08:56 <moray> h01ger: if they have them ready we can go much faster
20:09:00 <leogg_ni> we have our priority list over here http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/Meetings/PriorityList
20:09:03 <moray> it sounds like NI don't have them ready though?
20:09:06 <moray> leogg_ni: no
20:09:07 <gwolf> they do
20:09:20 <moray> leogg_ni: there were more things asked for in the emails, another reminder about 30 minutes ago on -team
20:09:35 <gwolf> oh, with extra thingies.. :(
20:10:03 <moray> leogg_ni: also, that page is empty
20:10:23 <moray> I guess we need to do this the slow way then
20:10:34 <leogg_ni> moray sorry
20:10:35 <moray> #topic Bid teams describe how their bid meets each of the points on the priority list
20:10:37 <leogg_ni> wrong link
20:10:40 <leogg_ni> http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/Bids/Managua/PriorityList
20:10:55 <h01ger> which team shall start? and is it each team 15min or both?
20:11:09 <h01ger> so 15-15-7-7-7-7 or 15-7-7 ?
20:11:14 <h01ger> (min)
20:11:28 <moray> h01ger: is there a point to spending 15 minutes pasting the wiki page into IRC?
20:12:12 <h01ger> so its 15 for both?
20:12:26 <leogg_ni> moray: h01ger if you want to we can paste it here, but everything is well explained on the wiki
20:12:45 * h01ger nods - fine
20:13:05 <moray> ok, shall we just paste the Brazil one too, and give people (say) 10 minutes to read them?
20:13:19 <h01ger> sounds good
20:13:30 <moray> Brazil's list is at http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/Bids/Brazil/BeloHorizonte/PriorityList
20:13:33 <marcot_br> The links are in : http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/Bids/Brazil/BeloHorizonte
20:13:54 <moray> you have until :23 to read those and discuss on the other channel :)
20:13:54 <h01ger> jeremiah_, hi! (+thx) - backlog is at meetbot.debian.net
20:14:05 <h01ger> you didnt really miss much yet
20:14:25 <jeremiah_> Hi, sorry I'm late :}
20:14:56 <jeremiah_> I did read those pages so I'm kinda up to date. :)
20:15:12 <moray> leogg_ni: ah, I see the other questions are there as small points at the bottom of your 'priority list' page
20:15:44 <moray> But for now, people should be concentrating on the main part of the NI page, down to and including Accessibility
20:18:51 <h01ger> discussion+questions in #dc12-discuss
20:23:35 <moray> ok, that's the reading time up
20:23:52 <moray> that was on "Bid teams describe how their bid meets each of the points on the priority list"
20:24:03 <moray> Next we asked the bid teams two further questions:
20:24:11 <moray> - describe weak points in your own bid
20:24:12 <moray> and
20:24:17 <moray> - describe strong points in the other bid
20:24:33 <moray> the Managua team's answers are at the bottom of http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/Bids/Managua/PriorityList
20:24:49 <moray> the Brazil answers are http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/Bids/Brazil/BeloHorizonte/WeakPoints and http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/Bids/Brazil/BeloHorizonte/ManaguaStrongPoints
20:25:11 <moray> shall we have another 10 minutes to read/think about those?
20:25:25 <moray> (I'll assume yes unless everyone gets bored first)
20:26:19 <marga> moray: I think Managua should re-think the "strong points in the other team" part... Having hosted DC4 isn't really a strong/weak point, just a fact.
20:27:19 <leogg_ni> marga: hosting DC gives you experience?
20:27:30 <moray> leogg_ni: then that's the same as your first point :)
20:27:36 * h01ger thinks Bela Horizonte has put more thought into their weak points and Managuas strong points then vice versa :)
20:27:55 <h01ger> for late comers: discussion+questions in #dc12-discuss - backlog on meetbot.debian.net
20:29:22 <leogg_ni> h01ger: belo horizonte has changed a lot on their wiki in the last couple of hours, we didn't have that info until now
20:29:44 <moray> leogg_ni: feel free to update your answers in the channel now (but if so, quickly)
20:30:01 <moray> (better if you leave the wiki page alone and update here)
20:30:03 <leogg_ni> moray: ok, will do
20:31:12 <moray> #topic Bids describe weak points in their own bid and strong points in other bid
20:31:19 <moray> (forgot to update before)
20:31:26 <marcot_br> leogg_ni: Sorry for that, we could only gather the information these days.
20:31:57 <leogg_ni> marcot_br: np :)
20:32:34 <leogg_ni> Brasil managed to get lower costs, they also have support of FISL which is, in our opinion, very important
20:34:40 <moray> any more updated strong points of the others, or updated weak points of your own?
20:34:49 <n0rman_ni> We believe that the brasilian team have experience in how to run DebConf since some members of the local team held debconf before as volunteer
20:35:32 <n0rman_ni> those are the strong points for br team
20:35:55 <moray> we're at the end of our 'reading time' now
20:36:20 <moray> The next agenda item will be the point-by-point run-through of the priority list.
20:36:58 <moray> h01ger: do you want a break yet?  people are still discussing, but we can't let them do that indefinitely in this topic
20:37:07 <h01ger> moray, no fine. but topic update please
20:37:12 <h01ger> #topic
20:37:18 <h01ger> ja.. (sorry)
20:37:34 <h01ger> #topic priority list. 1. costs
20:37:35 <moray> #topic Priority list run-through, comparing bids (but this year without allocating points)
20:37:54 <h01ger> did someone do the math for both now?
20:38:01 <moray> ok, in this part we invite the bid representatives to discuss
20:38:04 <moray> The initial numbers from Brazil looked very high.  The new numbers are better, but we haven't had long to consider them.
20:38:07 <moray> But I'd like to ask Richard Darst to comment here, as he's been looking at the numbers.
20:38:17 <darst> did anyone get the mail?
20:38:32 <marcot_br> darst: Yes, I read it.
20:38:32 <darst> it is not in lurker yet
20:38:39 <darst> should i re-paste?
20:38:40 <moray> darst: maybe you can summarise your thoughts
20:38:56 <darst> The only major difference is the cost of conference rooms
20:39:27 <darst> Belo Horizonte is $15000 (hotels) or $11000 (convention center) (perhaps they could explain the advantages and disadvantages of choosing each)
20:39:44 <h01ger> and there the diff is basically neglectable, i'd say
20:39:49 <h01ger> 4k $
20:39:50 <moray> Comments from the two bid teams?
20:39:51 <darst> Managua is $35,120-$42,200 with hotels (didn't create these myself)
20:40:04 <moray> How confident are BR in their new costs -- we could definitely get these prices?
20:40:31 <darst> But these are fixed costs, so the difference is manageable
20:40:35 <marcot_br> moray: Yes, we talked to the company that makes the reservations today, and got the prices for 2011.  They said that they could raise at most 10% on 2012.
20:40:45 <marcot_br> So we calculated everything including the 10% probable raise.
20:41:00 <moray> #topic priority list. 1. "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees
20:41:10 <moray> (I just noticed meetbot got the updates in the wrong order)
20:41:41 <darst> Biggest cost for Managua is  "2 Hacklabs + 1 server room 24hrs/14days (172.23 m²/total) at Crowne Plaza: USD 35,700"
20:42:04 <darst> which is a whole lot just for hacklabs
20:42:16 <marcot_br> darst: We need to take a better look at the options before deciding between them, but I'd say that the 15.000 option is likely to be a better option.
20:42:18 <darst> the actual conference rooms themselves are cheaper
20:42:45 <marga> Yeah, it's weird that hacklabs are more expensive.
20:42:57 <leogg_ni> The Managua venue is first class (and that's what we're paying for), there are some cheaper options
20:43:07 <leogg_ni> marga: the hacklabs are 24/7
20:43:08 <darst> you can calculate here: http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/ConferenceFacilities
20:43:13 <darst> (for managua)
20:44:15 <darst> managua, suppose we only need one hacklab for DebCamp, + time to set up the other by DebConf, does that reduce teh cost ?
20:44:35 <h01ger> so both are more less in the same range and both prices are also a bit unknown as its in 16 months?
20:44:36 <leogg_ni> darst: Of course!
20:44:58 <marcot_br> A beer in BH is about $1.8
20:45:17 <moray> (Managua said $1.00--$1.25)
20:45:20 <darst> (also we may need the conference rooms for more than 8 hours per day)
20:45:40 <h01ger> during debconf we better have the hacklabs 24/7
20:45:47 <moray> marcot_: Do you think that BH is generally more expensive than Managua?  Or you think no real difference?
20:45:53 <leogg_ni> darst: there are cheaper rooms at Mansiòn Teodolinda, three big rooms 24/7 for about $7K
20:46:15 <marcot_br> moray: I'll check the managua prices.
20:46:28 <moray> marcot_: I don't mean the specific conference venues now.
20:46:30 <marga> I don't think it's fruitful to go into this level of detail.
20:46:30 <darst> hacklabs + talk room in one venue is highly preferable
20:46:40 <moray> The conference venues are pretty much the same cost.
20:46:50 <marcot_br> moray: Yes, I know.
20:46:53 <h01ger> we have 5min for each of the prio points and already spent 10min on this one
20:46:58 <moray> So before we move on, does either city think there is a general difference in price?
20:47:01 <marga> With Brazil's new proposal, Managua's prices are a bit higher, but it's a small difference.
20:47:08 * h01ger counts this as a tie for himself and suggests to move on
20:47:15 * darst sure managua could be reduced
20:47:21 <n0rman_ni> h01ger: yes, the hacklabs will be 24/7
20:47:24 <leogg_ni> yes, Managua can be reduced
20:47:29 <h01ger> n0rman_ni, \o/
20:47:30 <moray> <moray> So before we move on, does either city think there is a general difference in price?
20:47:31 <marga> Yes, it's a tie.
20:48:02 <leogg_ni> moray: No
20:48:03 <darst> just to make sure, it is 15k vs 35-42k, not 15k vs 11k
20:48:08 <darst> but both are workable
20:48:16 <darst> and not that bad
20:48:25 <darst> +1 move on
20:48:45 <moray> #topic 2. strong, mature, experienced local team
20:48:52 <moray> Have the team members worked together before?  How much experience of DebConf do you have?
20:49:08 <marcot_br> darst: Sorry, I thought there was a list of usual prices in Manágua bid page, but I couldn't find it now in the hurry.
20:49:11 <moray> (there was some comment on the bid pages, I know, but I'm just trying to suggest what bids might think about here)
20:49:29 <moray> Do the bids think that one of them has a stronger local team?
20:50:11 <marcot_br> The team is basically a group of friends that work together organizing events at least since 2004.
20:50:31 <leogg_ni> moray: we think we have the strength and the experience, not necessary DC experience, but for that we have many people inside Debian supporting us
20:50:41 <marcot_br> The group is much bigger than the current team, and we expect to get support from the rest of the group if we're chosen, specially during the conferenc.e
20:50:41 <h01ger> marcot_, how many people are in your core team?
20:50:48 <h01ger> leogg_ni, how many in yours?
20:50:58 <h01ger> (now)
20:51:08 <leogg_ni> h01ger: we have about 10 in the core team
20:51:11 <marcot_br> I'd count 6 now: me, rafael_br, lu_br, Samuel, Thadeu and Régis.
20:51:12 <leogg_ni> right now
20:51:30 <marga> marcot_br: how many .br people outside BH would you expect to do hard work for DC12?
20:52:18 <marcot_br> marga: There's a list on our bid page.
20:52:31 <marga> marcot_br: lists tend to get longer than reality
20:52:43 <marcot_br> marga: Yes, I was going to complete the answer.
20:53:19 <marcot_br> marga: I don't want to make commitments, since I haven't talked to anyone, but I expect Valéssio, Tássia and Tiago to help, since they already contribute to debconf.
20:53:46 <marga> leogg_ni: apart from gwolf, are there any other people strongly involved in Debian willing to help you for DC12?
20:53:53 <marcot_br> marga: And in BH there are other people that I think that will end up helping, like Luciana Fujii and Gustavo Noronha (kov)
20:54:39 <leogg_ni> marga: anto that had experience in the orga-team for DC9 and MiniDebconf Panama
20:54:52 <n0rman_ni> marcot_br: rmayorga is supporting us too
20:54:55 <leogg_ni> marga: rmayorga fcestrada_ni
20:55:16 <moray> Does either local team think there is a difference in how strong the teams are?  NI seem less experienced of DebConf, but experienced organising other events.
20:55:24 <n0rman_ni> sorry, it was for marga :)
20:55:54 <h01ger> we need to move a bit faster, we spent 18min out of 45min already..
20:55:59 <leogg_ni> moray: yes, that's right
20:56:48 <moray> h01ger: right, my question "Does either local team think there is a difference in how strong the teams are?" was an attempt to close this one...
20:56:51 <n0rman_ni> moray: yes, we have no experience of DC but we organize events like Central America Free Software Meeting and MiniDebConf Panamá
20:57:04 <moray> h01ger: (we're still generally ahead of schedule in the meeting though)
20:57:23 * h01ger nods
20:57:34 <moray> n0rman_ni: I don't want more explanation currently :)  do you think you are weaker/stronger than BR as a DebConf local team?
20:57:39 <marcot_br> I believe both teams are experienced, with different kinds of experience.
20:57:54 <marga> I think we have another tie here.
20:57:57 <leogg_ni> we agree with marcot_br
20:58:08 <moray> #topic 3. good working spaces
20:58:14 <moray> I think both are good enough
20:58:18 <moray> and dissent?
20:58:21 <moray> any dissent
20:58:28 <marcot_br> As I don't know the people from _ni, I'd not risk saying they're less experienced, but I would not say we have few experience too.
20:59:06 * h01ger nods on tie
20:59:19 <moray> #topic 4. excellent network connectivity
20:59:28 <moray> both seem good enough here too?
20:59:48 <moray> maybe bid teams can summarise in 1 line the network plan they have?
20:59:48 <marga> really?
20:59:53 <h01ger> but what where the offers? 100mbit? gigabit?
21:00:20 <n0rman_ni> we offer a 20 mbits connection
21:00:52 <n0rman_ni> for internet, and 100mbps/1gbps for internal infrastructure
21:01:13 <leogg_ni> we plan to have this sponsored
21:01:17 <marcot_br> We offer 100mbps/1gbps for local connection.
21:01:19 <leogg_ni> by the ISP
21:01:26 <moray> I said "1 line" :)
21:01:27 <marcot_br> We will have to set up the infrastructure ourselfs.
21:01:34 <marcot_br> And we plan to get sponsored by ISP too.
21:01:47 <marcot_br> I got shocked when I read Manágua's bid that we were in the exact same situation.
21:01:52 <marga> leogg_ni: unless it's definite, "plan to" doesn't really count at this point (although it's nice when it's possible)
21:01:56 <moray> marcot_: so we would just have an ADSL connection?  or something better?
21:02:17 <leogg_ni> marga: you're right :)
21:02:32 <h01ger> so .br assumes better bandwidth ;D but both are fine for us (if we get those 20..)
21:03:24 <h01ger> setting up APs and as serverroom will work in both places?
21:03:26 <marcot_br> moray: I believe we can get to 20 mbps too.
21:03:32 <moray> maybe NI win slightly if they've already spoken to the ISP?
21:03:43 <leogg_ni> moray: we have, yes :)
21:03:57 <moray> marga: you said "<marga> really?" when I said both seemed good enough -- any more comment?
21:04:15 <karora> marcot_br: That would be 20mbps uplink also? Or asynchronous bandwidth?
21:04:16 <rafael_br> does nicaragua have only one possible ISP or are there more?
21:05:05 <n0rman_ni> rafael_br: we have two, Amnet and CLARO, both of them will be corporate connection with fiber optic
21:05:10 <marcot_br> karora: I don't have the details of the connection, but recently there was an event in SESC with very good connection to the internet, which was arranged specially for the event.
21:05:14 <marga> moray: I think that both need to work more on the offer, but both are about the same.  So for me it's a tie, but on the low end, not the high end.
21:05:28 <n0rman_ni> http://dc12bid.debian.org.ni/AmnetINTERNETCost.pdf here you can see the cost from Amnet
21:05:31 <marcot_br> I'll have to look for these details latter, if we got selected.  But I'm confident this won't be an issue.
21:06:06 <moray> #topic 5. quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
21:06:12 <moray> next point
21:06:12 <h01ger> next point?
21:06:24 <moray> here it sounds like NI wins?
21:06:30 <moray> as BR will now be a long way from anything?
21:06:33 <marga> Indeed.
21:06:40 <leogg_ni> moray: I think so, we have plenty to offer here
21:06:56 <moray> *_br: any comment before we move on?
21:07:39 <marcot_br> No, it's clearly a win for _NI.
21:07:58 <moray> #topic 6. suitable accommodation in close proximity
21:08:06 <moray> this could be two parts:
21:08:15 <moray> (a) how far is the main venue from the main accommodation
21:08:27 <moray> (b) are there alternative hotels etc. nearby, for people who want to make their own choice
21:08:47 <moray> bid teams: comments on (a) and (b) for your venues?
21:09:08 <marcot_br> a) It's a 3 minutes walking distance.  b) No.  There are hotels, but they are not nearby.
21:09:17 <leogg_ni> a) we have everything in a walking distance and b) yes! of course! plenty of options (not only those listed on the wiki)
21:09:38 <moray> leogg_ni: how long is your "walking distance"?  mine is long, but some DebConf people complain at 100 metres
21:09:43 <marga> marcot_br: are there different qualities of rooms?
21:09:59 * h01ger thinks .br actually wins here. having things in an "isolated island^whotel" also has wins for the athmospehre
21:10:02 <marga> marcot_br: if someone wants to be in a five star room, what's the best offer at SESC?
21:10:45 <h01ger> marga, do we care about people who _need_ a 5 star room?
21:10:52 <leogg_ni> moray: there is a list on the wiki, but the main hotels are 100 to less than 500 mts. away, and we will have transportation available for thos who complain :)
21:11:02 <marcot_br> marga: In SESC there are no five star room.  Most of the rooms in SESC are about the same.
21:11:07 <marga> moray: it was said that it's 500m away, that should be about 5 to 7 minutes.
21:11:10 <marcot_br> marga: considering the options we included in the wiki.
21:11:13 <marga> h01ger: I'm just asking.
21:11:20 <leogg_ni> marga: that's correct
21:12:03 <marga> marcot_br: is there a size limit?
21:12:08 <moray> both are good enough for the main accommodation, it seems, but maybe NI has some advantage here then, because it's in the city?  what do others think?
21:12:12 <marcot_br> There's a five star hotel about 11km from SESC.
21:12:28 <h01ger> marga, i'm just putting things in perspective ;)
21:12:59 <marcot_br> marga: You mean a maximum number of rooms?
21:13:04 <marga> I still think it's a win for .br, because of the enclosed space, as holger said
21:14:10 <marga> marcot_br: the wiki says there's space for 1000 people... Would we really be able to book that much? or would other conferences be using the rest of the rooms?
21:14:42 <marcot_br> marga: Yes, we would really be able to book that much if we do that a lot of time before the conference.
21:14:47 <moray> I can't imagine we can book out something that large within our budget
21:15:31 <marcot_br> marga: There are some yearly events that happen in SESC, and some events that are booked some time before, so we would need to have that number a reasonable amount of time before the conference.
21:15:40 <moray> so I think we have to assume it would be like Mexico at best -- maybe we dominate the hotel areas, but we can't take over the whole of a 1000-person place
21:15:41 <marga> ok
21:16:00 <n0rman_ni> the venue is Cronw Plaza Convention Center that is in Crowne Plaza Hotel, a 5 stars and handicap-friendly hotel
21:20:17 <moray> [there's discussion on the other channel so I'm waiting a moment]
21:20:54 <rafael_br> I think workwise sesc is a very good idea. There will be less distractions and people will be able to concentrate more on their projects
21:21:19 <marga> Can we agree on a small advantage for .br for this?
21:21:56 <leogg_ni> If the thing is to have everybody on a single location, then yes
21:22:00 <moray> I see BR slightly ahead on the basic "sponsored accommodation" part, slightly behind for any corporate attendees etc.
21:22:07 <moray> but that's also due to lacking details
21:22:08 <h01ger> for late comers: discussion+questions in #dc12-discuss - backlog on meetbot.debian.net
21:22:17 <moray> anyway, I don't think there is a big difference either way
21:22:26 <marcot_br> moray: Which details do you miss?
21:22:27 <moray> both have good enough accommodation in close proximity
21:22:48 <moray> and since we're not giving 'points' I think we can move on?
21:23:03 <h01ger> yes
21:23:08 <moray> #topic 7. presentation facilities
21:23:14 <moray> both seem good enough
21:23:30 <moray> (though I'm more up-to-speed on the NI ones since they've been posted longer :)
21:24:26 * h01ger nods, both seem good
21:24:35 <moray> either bid team want to argue there's a difference?
21:24:36 <leogg_ni> Maybe we should mention that renting equipment is cheap in .ni and we'll get most of it for free
21:24:41 <h01ger> (and not much diff either. please speak up if you think thats wring)
21:24:49 <h01ger> leogg_ni, totally you should! :)
21:24:58 <marcot_br> What kind of equipment will be rented?
21:25:15 <h01ger> projectors
21:25:16 <h01ger> speakers
21:25:18 <h01ger> PAs
21:25:19 <moray> marcot_: we need projectors etc. -- normally the *problem* is if the venue insists we rent from them, at very high prices
21:25:32 <h01ger> (chairs, tables)
21:25:40 <moray> it can be cheaper to buy a new projector than rent one from a hotel for one or two days...
21:25:52 <leogg_ni> CCEN has giving full support for a DC12 in Managua and they will give their equipment for free (including cameras and other expensive equipment for the video team)
21:26:00 <rafael_br> cascardo_br is also in the brazilian team.
21:26:01 <leogg_ni> if needed
21:26:09 <n0rman_ni> The support letter from CCEN here http://dc12bid.debian.org.ni/CCENsupport.pdf
21:26:19 <marcot_br> moray: The venue don't insist that we rent from them.  It's possible to rent it there, though.
21:26:28 <marcot_br> Well have mics and speakers for free.
21:27:19 <moray> h01ger: shall we say NI slightly ahead as they have this agreement in place?
21:27:38 <moray> h01ger: or you think more than that from your exclamation marks? ;)
21:28:10 <moray> h01ger, as a video team person, cares and knows more about this part than many of us
21:28:33 * h01ger is undecided between tie and maybe a slight bit better on .ni
21:28:39 <h01ger> but then there is fisl and secs
21:28:56 * h01ger looks at his crystal ball again ;)
21:29:05 <marcot_br> I believe we can manage to get projectors for free here.
21:29:09 <leogg_ni> h01ger: we have an agreement already
21:29:14 <marcot_br> It won't be more than 3, anyway.
21:29:19 <leogg_ni> h01ger: not promises, or perhaps
21:29:55 <marga> I think it's a slight advantage to .ni
21:29:56 <h01ger> next?
21:30:08 <moray> #topic 8. travel logistics
21:30:12 <moray> Both countries are 'far away' for many attendees in terms of flying time.
21:30:25 <moray> What's the difference after those flights -- how long from a major airport?
21:30:40 <moray> Another part of this point would be the difference in visa requirements.
21:30:49 <leogg_ni> I think this is a clear advantage for .ni, both in terms of price and in visa requirements
21:30:57 <marga> .ni is cheaper and closer in general, but does tend to need more layovers? Or are the suggestions in the wiki so inconvinient for another reason?
21:31:08 <leogg_ni> Most of the countries don't require visa
21:31:23 * h01ger thinks .ni wins here, with managua being the central hub for .ni (so no bus drives) and also better visa for those poor US-americans (and asociated mexicans ;)
21:31:32 * h01ger hides from people in chigago and close by
21:31:54 <marcot_br> Yes, I agree on that.
21:31:57 <leogg_ni> Airport is only 8km away from venue
21:32:19 <moray> Can someone quote the distance/time from a major airport in BR?
21:32:32 <leogg_ni> marga: It depends very much on the airline
21:33:12 <moray> question is: NI is 8 km from the main airport, how far is BR?  I think 100s of kms?
21:33:57 <marga> moray: There's an airport in BH.  It shouldn't be that much.
21:34:05 <moray> < gwolf> It was 500Km from Sao Paulo (lineal), I asked at the beginning of the discussion
21:34:13 <marcot_br> moray: It's 600km from GRU in São Paulo.
21:34:35 <marcot_br> moray: And 17km from CNF, in Belo Horizonte.
21:34:58 <moray> any more on this point before we move on to the last one?
21:35:24 * h01ger is fine with moving on
21:35:29 <marga> I think this is a win for .ni, because it's cheaper -in general- and requires less visas.
21:35:33 <marcot_br> I think the situation regarding airport distance is the same.
21:35:44 * h01ger nods marga
21:35:45 <marcot_br> I agree with the win for cheaper tickets and less visas.
21:35:50 <moray> #topic 9. accessibility
21:36:20 <moray> Bid teams: what have you done to ensure that the conference will be accessible for e.g. people in wheelchairs, and blind people?
21:36:39 <leogg_ni> Our venue is fully accesible for people with special mobility needs
21:37:10 <leogg_ni> Hotel Crowne Plaza and Teodolinda has rooms for people in wheelchairs
21:37:16 <marcot_br> There are special rooms for handicapped people, and we plan to have a vehicle to transport them inside SESC.
21:37:37 <leogg_ni> We will also have local transportation if needed
21:37:40 <marga> marcot_br: how about moving inside sesc?
21:37:52 <marga> leogg_ni: how about getting from Teodolinda to Crown?
21:38:15 <rafael_br> please give voice to cascardo_br
21:38:25 <marcot_br> rafael_br: No, it's only 2 for each bid.
21:38:35 <h01ger> team .br, team .ni: do you know any handicaped people living in managua/bela horizonte?
21:38:40 <marcot_br> marga: In SESC, they usually hire a van for transporting people.
21:39:09 <leogg_ni> marga: We will have transportation for that
21:39:13 <moray> Does either country have a general advantage in its status for accessibility?  (In many European countries, for example, there are by now detailed laws on requirements.)
21:39:43 <marcot_br> moray: I don't think so.
21:39:46 <leogg_ni> h01ger: yes, my stepfather and some friends
21:40:20 <marcot_br> h01ger: No, we don't.
21:40:32 <leogg_ni> moray: The organizations for handicaped people are strong in NIcaragua and progress have been made, but there's still a lot to do
21:40:39 <leogg_ni> moray: unfortunately
21:40:40 <h01ger> was just a rather pointless question anyway..
21:41:01 <h01ger> (or shooting in the dark ;)
21:41:20 * h01ger cant really see anything here
21:41:37 <moray> no, seems like both are "we can work around problems"
21:41:45 <marcot_br> In downtown there are marks on the streets for blind people, but not in SESC.
21:42:23 <leogg_ni> moray: Yes, I think you're right
21:42:41 <marcot_br> I agree.
21:42:42 <n0rman_ni> moray: thats right, we can
21:42:45 <moray> #topic Break?
21:42:56 <moray> the next topic is general discussion.  maybe a 5 minute break first?
21:43:21 <h01ger> 5min break sounds good
21:43:30 <moray> break until :49
21:43:45 <moray> (apologies to those in non-integer timezone offsets)
21:44:25 <karora> :-)
21:46:47 <h01ger> for late comers: discussion+questions in #dc12-discuss - backlog on meetbot.debian.net
21:49:06 <moray> #topic Further discussion
21:50:18 <h01ger> #topic Further discussion - channel open for everyone
21:50:40 <h01ger> sapphire!
21:51:01 <sapphire> h01ger! :)
21:51:26 <moray> (Bid teams, please answer people's questions, but don't just make arguments that your own country is better :)
21:51:57 <gwolf> people, please ask questions... :-}
21:52:02 <gwolf> sapphire: !
21:52:07 <moray> Well, or (non-bid team people) make points.
21:52:18 <n0rman_ni> we are ready :)
21:52:19 <leogg_ni> please
21:52:28 <moray> Are there non-bid team people who have been persuaded by a bid in all this?
21:53:09 <moray> If so, please explain your reasoning to all of us who find it hard to decide!
21:53:38 * h01ger has local team, being downtown and travel/visa in favor of .ni (but 2 of them only slightly) and network and accomodation in favor of .br
21:54:16 <leogg_ni> h01ger: network was for .ni ?
21:54:17 <h01ger> and i consider 6. (accom.) quite more important than sixth, actually
21:54:27 <h01ger> leogg_ni, no, slightly .br
21:54:42 <leogg_ni> h01ger: why?
21:54:43 <moray> I wrote down 'tie' for network
21:54:57 * leogg_ni scrolls up
21:55:00 * gwolf points that the network difference is potential
21:55:06 <leogg_ni> h01ger: it was a tie
21:55:13 <marga> h01ger: I have tie as well.
21:55:24 <marcot_br> h01ger: Why do you have local team for .ni?
21:55:29 <zumbi> NI presented a well documented paper with prices and symmetric network connection, BR has presented nothing
21:55:36 <h01ger> that was *my* book/notes
21:55:39 <h01ger> thats why
21:55:48 <marga> So, tiago raises a question regarding dates and school holidays.  What are the proposed dates for each and how are school holidays affected by them?
21:55:49 <h01ger> *personal* impression
21:56:20 <h01ger> i assume we get slightly better network in .br - are we starting to discuss frictions of +- ? ;)
21:56:28 <h01ger> s/i/*i*/
21:56:39 <h01ger> and i share my views to get yours!
21:56:42 <marcot_br> from July 8 to 22 is a good date is a good day for us.
21:56:54 <leogg_ni> marga: we propose end july or early august... we have jan to dec school schedule
21:58:18 <zumbi> the only problem is that it is in spanish, but http://dc12bid.debian.org.ni/AmnetINTERNETCost.pdf has quite good information regarding network
21:58:35 <tiago> zumbi, good point, i trust very much .br people here, but I'm worried about moving to SESC too late, with no details
21:59:06 <h01ger> tiago, worried about everythign @sesc or just network?
21:59:44 <tiago> h01ger, SESC as whole, since we don't have enough details/garanties
22:00:00 <tiago> and I didn't see any affordable plan B
22:00:01 <rafael_br> what sort of guarantees?
22:00:46 <moray> tiago: that *is* one factor that pushes me towards NI
22:01:00 <marcot_br> tiago: I agree with no affordable plan B, but we talked with the company that makes the reservations today, and we can make our reservation as soon as the location is decided.
22:01:15 <moray> tiago: it's balanced somewhat by them having got a good "last minute" solution, but they failed to get that for 3 months first
22:01:19 <marcot_br> So I don't think there are any guarantee difference here.
22:01:32 <gwolf> ...And in Managua there is not one, but several hotels in the surrounding blocks - any one of them cancelling will not give us that much of a challenge
22:01:52 <marcot_br> moray: As cascardo_br mentioned by e-mail, it's hard to get things done in Brazil before Carnival, so we could not get to the right people before that.
22:02:07 <marcot_br> gwolf: That's certainly a point.
22:02:17 <moray> marcot_: hard to get things done during 3 months?  that sounds worrying for organising a conference :)
22:02:24 <leogg_ni> We have several backup plans if one fails
22:02:43 <h01ger> moray, we shouldnt do debconf during carneval :)
22:02:46 <gregoa> IMO I see a slight advantage for .ni: they seem to have more details and confirmations worked out, seem to have a larger team, and I also prefer the downtown (with restaurants and hotels) setting (but this is a matter of taste). I can image dc in .br as well, but it is a bite more vague at the moment
22:02:49 <rafael_br> moray: we visited a lot of possible venues during those 3 months
22:03:03 <moray> gwolf: do you think they 'understand' DebConf despite not having been involved?
22:03:17 <rafael_br> but it took us a while until we had found one that was affordable
22:03:19 <moray> gwolf: they're not just fooled into running by you while being ignorant?
22:03:26 <rafael_br> after that, things went smoothly
22:03:27 <marcot_br> moray: Well, hard to start things going.  It's not that the country stops, but people work in a "vacation mood", so it's not as easy to get them by phone, for instance.
22:03:47 <gwolf> moray: Do you think I can fool people just by speaking wonders to them? :)
22:03:48 <h01ger> jeremiah_, karora, darst, marga: what do you think?
22:03:53 <marcot_br> Now that things are already set up (and it's not carnival), we have direct contacts which will make our life easier from now on.
22:04:07 <jcristau> gwolf: maybe you're just that awesome
22:04:08 <rafael_br> and, even when you get them on the phone they say "can we arrange that after carnival?"
22:04:09 * karora lends his weight towards .ni
22:04:18 <tiago> marcot_br, agreed, it's really hard to work on such things before carnival, and as I said, it's only a concern which I would have for any bid. I know the importance to have someone talking about the place with authority of being there before (see bosnia example)
22:04:25 <gwolf> No, really, following a bit gregoa's point - I know that _not_ having been yet part of DebConf even played on their favour. They did a _LOT_ of research, and bugged me over and over with details, questions, etc.
22:04:28 <moray> rafael_br: right, but we will have another Carnival in the work period leading up to DC12
22:04:47 <tiago> but please don't get me wrong, I'm fully support SESC and trust you
22:04:53 <rafael_br> moray: that's not a problem, we get things done in Brazil, it's just a matter of planning
22:05:05 <moray> yes, as said at the start, both bids are "good enough", we're just trying to find things to separate them
22:05:08 <cascardo_br> Well, I have been twice at SESC before during other large events there.
22:05:23 <cascardo_br> Teia, in 2007 and Oficina de Inclusao Digital, in 2009.
22:05:34 <cascardo_br> Since I live in BH, I was not a guest there, just visiting.
22:05:57 <moray> karora: views?
22:06:00 <rafael_br> Our only issue was taking too long to find an affordable venue
22:06:02 <moray> jeremiah_: views?
22:06:09 <cascardo_br> But there were two events related to free culture, with government support, in which people were hosted there.
22:06:09 <marga> I also think .ni has a very slight advantage.
22:06:09 <moray> I hope they haven't fallen asleep...
22:06:20 * marga was pondering.
22:06:22 <rafael_br> but I only see our bid a bit behind on networking connectivity
22:06:29 <rmayorga> is 16:00 @ ni
22:06:31 <karora> I feel that the more central location of .ni is in it's favour.
22:06:36 <leogg_ni> :D
22:07:13 <gwolf> h01ger, moray..?
22:07:18 * gwolf tries to wake jeremiah_ up...
22:07:42 <h01ger> reading backlog
22:07:47 <gwolf> ...if there is not much of a discussion...
22:07:50 <jeremiah_> Hi!
22:07:55 <moray> gwolf: I find it hard to decide, NI depends if I trust your reports or not :)
22:07:55 <jeremiah_> I have been lurking, reading.
22:08:01 <gwolf> h01ger: can you push the topic one bit forward?
22:08:08 <jeremiah_> There is a lot of good info, and it is really hard to decide. :-)
22:08:13 <h01ger> gwolf, you too but
22:08:18 <h01ger> #topic decision
22:08:20 <karora> I am slightly concerned about the lack of DebConf knowledge on the .ni team, but I think we can manage that.
22:08:34 <h01ger> #topic decision - please continue on #dc12-discuss
22:08:41 <h01ger> gwolf, thanks
22:09:53 <moray> again: We can only have one winning DebConf venue chosen for 2012, unfortunately.  We need to try to guess which venue will work better for DebConf in 2012; it's not about which country is better.
22:10:22 <moray> we have a 22:22 deadline to come to a decision before we have to postpone to another meeting
22:10:48 <moray> (and I don't think that would really be helpful, since both bids are "good enough")
22:11:09 <marga> I'm with karora.  I'm a little bit troubled about the lack of DebConf experience from .ni, but otherwise think that they have a _slightly_ better proposal.
22:11:35 <moray> That's pretty much what I said -- we have to trust gwolf that they understand DebConf.
22:11:47 <h01ger> we trusted gwolf before... ;)
22:11:52 <moray> If they won today, could we get some NI people at DebConf11?
22:12:12 <leogg_ni> moray: we expect attending dc11 in bosnia
22:12:40 <marga> leogg_ni: who? how many?
22:13:01 <leogg_ni> marga: at least three or four of us
22:14:19 <moray> Any more people from outside the bid teams who haven't spoken?
22:14:24 <h01ger> it seems to me that we dont need voting if we accept that we decide for .ni with "only small advantages" or such ;)
22:14:38 <h01ger> this channel is +m, please speak on #dc12-discuss
22:14:47 <moray> yup, sorry
22:15:15 <h01ger> no need, good team or? :)
22:15:19 <moray> I should also remind people that it's better to lose the DebConf bidding process. ;)
22:15:34 <h01ger> ?why? aaah :))
22:15:49 <moray> The ""winner"" gets a prize of too much work.
22:16:16 <leogg_ni> moray: I agree :)
22:16:51 <moray> At the moment we do seem to be edging towards a consensus of "NI by a small margin"
22:17:16 <moray> so please speak up on -discuss if you're outside the bid teams and think that would be bad :)
22:18:06 * h01ger just got confirmation taht a potential dc11 sponsor has become a 97% sponsor now
22:18:15 <h01ger> (btw + yay)
22:19:52 <h01ger> marcot_br, rafael_br: see #dc12-discuss ;)
22:20:21 <marcot_br> h01ger: We're reading it.
22:20:47 <moray> I guess no one's saying that (though it's still very close, someone has time to change our minds ;)
22:21:00 <h01ger> i think it _is_ a small margin and only a small margin and so maybe its also just peoples "tastes" or "hopes" but still, nobody is really opposed to .ni so far
22:21:24 <moray> ok, I think we're as close as we'll get
22:21:40 <moray> can we 'formalise' that by having the committee people agree (or object)?
22:21:44 * h01ger nods
22:21:55 <moray> I am happy to go with this consensus view.
22:22:22 <moray> h01ger: marga karora jeremiah_ ?
22:22:48 <jeremiah_> My view is Brazil: 9.9 Nicaragua: 10
22:23:00 <marga> I agree.
22:23:16 <moray> jeremiah_: it's not a vote on the venue, but whether you're happy to take the consensus -- but I guess that's yes
22:23:32 <jeremiah_> moray: Sorry. I mean to agree with the consensus. :-)
22:23:43 <h01ger> both are absolutly suited candidates. .ni dc12 .br dc12.5 in summer ;)
22:23:44 <moray> karora: ?
22:24:03 <h01ger> (and i'm happy with this consensus to choose .ni)
22:24:53 * karora still votoing for .ni
22:25:12 <moray> karora: and happy to go with the consensus and make a decision now?
22:25:17 <h01ger> so yay!
22:25:22 <gwolf> Not being myself on the committee, I think I still have a voice here, so...
22:25:33 <h01ger> #topic *tatata*
22:25:35 <gwolf> It seems nobody wants to tell "thank you" to a great bid
22:25:40 <gwolf> But... It has to happen :)
22:25:46 <moray> speech!
22:25:47 <gwolf> And... Well, it's been an amazing meeting
22:25:49 <gwolf> :)
22:25:54 <leogg_ni> :D
22:26:02 <gwolf> I think we can finally announce that...
22:26:11 <gwolf> DebConf 12 will be held in Managua, Nicaragua!
22:26:20 <h01ger> #topic thank you both, bela horizonte and managua for two great debconf bids
22:26:24 <gwolf> Belo Horizonte, Brazil: Thanks for a great amount of work
22:26:25 <leogg_ni> gwolf: :D
22:26:30 <moray> thank you to both teams indeed
22:26:37 <moray> thank you for Nicaragua for being foolish
22:26:46 <moray> and congratulations to Brazil for your narrow escape :)
22:26:47 <gwolf> I really expect the Brazilians to keep engaged in orga
22:26:57 <leogg_ni> thank you guys and looking forward to see you in Bosnia this year and in Managua next year! :D
22:27:07 <rafael_br> good luck and good work nicaragua
22:27:11 <gwolf> As I was recently saying to the Nicaraguans: Enjoy that lovely noose before you have to try it on ;-)
22:27:21 <h01ger> (open channel again)
22:27:23 <leogg_ni> moray: :D
22:27:30 <leogg_ni> rafael_br: thank you
22:27:35 <cascardo_br> Thank you all.
22:27:38 <moray> And thank you everyone for a good, calm, meeting.
22:27:55 <cascardo_br> I look forward to go to Debconf in Nicaragua!  :-)  yay!
22:28:00 <jeremiah_> Congratulations - and thanks!
22:28:05 * h01ger is also very happy about this civil meeting
22:28:06 <nomada> HOY ME VOY EN PEGA!
22:28:08 <n0rman_ni> :)
22:28:15 <mmgc84_ni> vamonos!!!
22:28:15 <gwolf> :D
22:28:20 <tiago> thanks bidders, i got a headache here
22:28:21 <fitoria_ni> :D
22:28:28 <gregoa> thanks to both teams for being fair and friendly all the time!
22:28:28 <moray> right, I'm pretty tired myself now
22:28:29 <fcestrada_ni> nomada *1 (means going to celebrate)
22:28:32 * fitoria_ni celebrates!!!!
22:28:35 <svale_br> thanks guys, cya =D congrats.
22:28:41 <h01ger> and i'll miss the opportunity to go to brazil - i hope you'll run again!
22:28:44 <moray> And I hope the bid teams can have a beer together at DC11 :)
22:28:54 <moray> yes, I definitely hope they run again
22:29:02 <jeremiah_> I guess I have a scoop for DPN!
22:29:03 <eveevans> great job for both team, and.... Congratulations Nicaragua
22:29:09 <gwolf> Yes, we should have a DC12.5 in Brazil ;-)
22:29:10 <anto> thanks everybody it's been an amazing meeting, very good meeting
22:29:11 <gregoa> moray, h01ger: thanks alot for preparing and chairing this meeting - it was a real pleasure to attend! congratulations
22:29:13 <cascardo_br> h01ger, who knows? DC12.5?  :-)  But, I guess I will be back.
22:29:18 <h01ger> (and i dont think running is foolish, its wonderful + responsibil crazy :)
22:29:21 <zumbi> *_br thanks! *_ni congrats! :)
22:29:21 <moray> #info NI wins
22:29:50 <moray> #endmeeting