17:00:45 <Hydroxide> #startmeeting
17:00:45 <MeetBot> Meeting started Sat Feb 27 17:00:45 2010 UTC.  The chair is Hydroxide. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:45 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:54 <Hydroxide> #topic intro
17:00:58 <Hydroxide> Hello everyone and welcome to the DC11 decision meeting. Thanks to many interested people, we do have 3 bids up and running. For this reason we have decided to be very strict about today's agenda and way the meeting goes, as otherwise it will take AGES. So let's explain it shortly: The two chairs, Hydroxide and moray, have chanop and manage this all. From every bid we have two people with voice, so they can speak for their bid. Last, ...
17:00:59 <Clint> _MUC needs +v still
17:01:04 <Hydroxide> There is one part where we open the meeting for everyone, this is "general questions by the audience". This will be a 10 minute session "free for all". Please keep it ontopic and make sure you do not reask the same thing again and again, especially not those already answered in the various bid pages.
17:01:09 <Hydroxide> ... but not least there are two global orga team members having voice, Clint and marga.
17:01:12 <Hydroxide> No one else is able to speak up (with a little exception I'll say in a second). If you do want to discuss, please /join #dc11-talk now. Clint and marga volunteered to forward questions (when approrpriate).
17:01:17 <Hydroxide> You can look at the plan for today's meeting at http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf11/Meetings
17:01:32 <Hydroxide> who else for MUC?
17:02:03 <azeem_MUC> Hydroxide: aba_MUC when he comes back
17:02:21 <Hydroxide> s/last/last but not least, Clint and marga have global team
17:02:23 <Hydroxide> err
17:02:28 <Hydroxide> ok
17:02:52 <Hydroxide> #topic participants introduce themselves (#dc11-talk for chat)
17:03:13 <Hydroxide> would the quito people briefly introduce themselves?
17:03:23 <bureado_UIO> Yes.
17:03:27 <bureado_UIO> Thanks for your time and attention. We're definitely all-in for making this meeting expedite, we appreciate your time and dedication to DebConf.
17:03:38 <bureado_UIO> Quito's bid started last year, when we ran for DC10. Last year we did a huge work nationwide to get support for the event, which now traduces in a complete draft budget and accommodation options, secured rates and sponsors, selected venues and softened rough edges from our last bid, e.g., connectivity and bed-to-venue transit times.
17:04:04 <bureado_UIO> ailefi_UIO and bureado_UIO are leading the bid, rvntone_UIO and Roliverio_UIO are supporting us, and we're expecting 2-3 people soon. That's it, thanks.
17:04:11 <Hydroxide> ok
17:04:22 <marga> s/traduces/translates/
17:04:25 <Hydroxide> Munich, please introduce your team/bid
17:04:38 <azeem_MUC> Hello, my name is Michael Banck
17:04:56 <azeem_MUC> I am leading the bid along with Andreas Barth (aba_MUC) and Jan-Marek Glogowski (jmux_MUC)
17:05:20 <azeem_MUC> We have been working hard to make the Munich bid as good as possible. One thing we wanted to make
17:05:23 <azeem_MUC> clear from the beginning was that we would go for a conference in the city center - not some
17:05:27 <azeem_MUC> conference center in some nearby village or in an industrial area far away from where the city life
17:05:31 <azeem_MUC> happens.
17:05:56 <Hydroxide> ok, thanks
17:06:07 <azeem_MUC> .
17:06:13 <Hydroxide> Banja Luka, please (briefly :P) introduce your team/bid
17:06:38 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Hello greetings from Bosnia :) My name is Adnan Hodzic and I'm the bead leader for our DC11 bid. Last couple of months myself and our team have been working really hard to try organizing dc11 in Bosnia, which would definetely open many doors for future investments and tourisms in our country.
17:07:42 <Hydroxide> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: who are the other team leaders?
17:07:50 <Hydroxide> (just by way of introduction)
17:07:57 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> our team consist of a lot of individuals besides me today representing our bid will be Enis Sahinovic EnisDonkKing_BiH and we'll try to bring our bid much closer to you :)
17:08:04 <Hydroxide> ok :)
17:08:31 <EnisDonKing_BiH> Once again, we'd like to thank you for an opportunity to present our bid and basically explain what we've been working on for a last couple of months. We hope you ll like it.
17:08:55 <Hydroxide> #topic each team describes each topic from the priority list for their bid (Quito)
17:09:10 <Hydroxide> ok, quito, please try to quickly run down the priority list or paste a URL if you have one
17:09:11 <bureado_UIO> 1.  "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees
17:09:16 <bureado_UIO> 1.  "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees
17:09:27 <bureado_UIO> Both last year and this one, Quito and Ecuador make a great affordable option for sponsors and attendees. Having low inflation, USD as local currency and local production of several goods allows us to secure rates for food and accommodation, as well as travel fares, which are very competitive. See our draft budget for details, and we'll be happy to detail current costs for common products and services for reference (e.g., minimum taxi fare: 1 USD)
17:09:51 <marga> bureado_UIO: URL for draft budget?
17:10:02 <bureado_UIO> http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf11/Quito/BudgetDraft
17:10:19 <bureado_UIO> (updated, since we're not paying neither for venues or connectivity)
17:10:24 <bureado_UIO> 2. strong, mature, experienced local team
17:10:34 <bureado_UIO> There's a close five-people team leading the bid, with 10+ people supporting secondary needs at this moment, and committed to help as full-time participants of the local team. bureado and ailefi moved in to Ecuador more than a year ago from Venezuela, where they had a huge deal of experience in international FLOSS conferences, ranging from FLISOL to FMCL, with thousands of national and international visitors.
17:12:00 <bureado_UIO> Local community include Ubuntu Ecuador, which does the nationwide UBUNTEC and ASLE, which is the FLOSS association. People are usual participants for events in Argentina, Brazil and Colombia. This year, three big events are happening: ECUASOL, FLISOL and several BarCamps. We're definitely setting the tone for FLOSS community in the Andean region.
17:12:25 <bureado_UIO> 3. good working spaces
17:12:31 <bureado_UIO> We have excellent, international-grade, University spaces for us: talks, meetings, workshops, BoFs and hacklabs. All of them are properly equipped and provided no-cost in exchange for sponsor spots. If we pick a proper timeslot, it'll also be vacations for school, so we'll own the place for us.
17:13:34 <bureado_UIO> 4. excellent network connectivity
17:13:39 <bureado_UIO> Sir, yes, Sir! Last year a transatlantic cable ran from Ecuador to the US, providing all ISPs in the country with increased access to the Internet without the price hit. This complements the existing line running through Colombia. Ecuador has deployed an IPv6 network, and AEPROVI provides a NAP for the country, greatly improving our connectivity chances.
17:14:35 * Hydroxide gives a side note - moray just updated the agenda to reflect the actual PriorityList wiki page - the one copy-pasted from DC10 was minorly different, partly due to US-specific concerns. please carry on :)
17:15:05 <bureado_UIO> ACK that, at the end of the list.
17:15:13 <bureado_UIO> We were using the one from DC10.
17:15:21 <bureado_UIO> Furthermore, our local team arranged to have an sponsor cover all costs for at least 5 E1 symmetric dedicated connections, which will be Puntonet. We didn't even bother to contact the national ISP, which is CNT, which might as well be a backup if it's needed. Note that at the currently selected venue we can't use university's connectivity, but we're free to run our own.
17:15:23 * Hydroxide nods
17:16:56 <bureado_UIO> 5. quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
17:17:00 <bureado_UIO> Definitely. La Mariscal, which is the district in which both our venues and accommodation will reside, boasts a plethora of options for drinking, eating and having fun. From Uncle Ho's thai food to Suzette's creppes and french delicacies, and several great pizza delivery shops for hackers, this is definitely granted!
17:18:20 * Hydroxide encourages Munich and Banja Luka to prepare their equivalent lists now, ready for copy-pasting on an URL you then paste into the channel
17:18:24 <bureado_UIO> 6. suitable accommodation in close proximity
17:18:29 <bureado_UIO> We did a great job securing rates on the field. There are 500+ beds in the district, all of them under 20 USD/person/night, and we've built a list here: http://wiki.debconf.org/upload/d/d6/DC11-AccommodationProspects.pdf
17:19:59 <bureado_UIO> 7. presentation facilities
17:20:03 <bureado_UIO> DC11 in Quito would be hosted in a University. This is the most important University in Ecuador, one of the most important in the Andes region, which has produced professionals now working from NASA to physics labs around the World. We definitely count on having University-level presentation facilities. Renting special equipments is not expensive and we plan to do that in order to improve at least our audio quality levels.
17:21:07 <bureado_UIO> 8. travel logistics
17:21:12 <bureado_UIO> Ecuador is a main tourist destination. We've detailed airlines and main destinations in our bid page. Ecuador would make the cheapest/fastest option for visitors in the Americas, and quite a fast option for visitors from Asia and Oceania. Direct flights from Europe with major airlines are available daily, and also with connections in Bogotá and Caracas at incredible prices, specially taking an off-peak time slot.
17:21:40 <bureado_UIO> Inside Ecuador, transportation (and most products and services) are really cheap, flights between Quito and Guayaquil for tourism can be as low as 50 USD, taxis are 1 USD minimum fare, buses can bring you to Peru or Chile, and buses from and to the airport will also be arranged.
17:22:10 <bureado_UIO> 9. accessibility
17:22:30 <bureado_UIO> This city's been recognized as one of the most accessible cities in Latin America. Downtown is fully accessible as well as our venues and the selected accommodation options for people with special mobility needs. In a country where your vicepresident and chancellor has to move around using a wheelchair, you'll definitely see greater awareness on this. Anyway, we're planning to dedicate people to handle details for accessibility. It's best for every
17:22:45 <bureado_UIO> Thanks. Please find these notes in: http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf11/Quito/PriorityList
17:22:50 <Hydroxide> bureado_UIO: got cut off at "It's best for every"
17:23:04 <bureado_UIO> It's best for everyone*
17:23:07 <Hydroxide> ok
17:23:08 <Hydroxide> thanks
17:23:26 <Hydroxide> #topic priority list description (Munich) (#dc11-talk to chat)
17:23:47 <azeem_MUC> .
17:23:50 <azeem_MUC> First up, we would like to mention government support: Munich is one of Debian's biggest success
17:23:54 <azeem_MUC> stories; all of Munich's 10000+ desktops are being migrated to Debian by the LiMux team. The bid is
17:23:57 <azeem_MUC> jointly done by LiMux, and we have the support of the city council with the head mayor Christian Ude
17:24:01 <azeem_MUC> agreeing to be the conference's patron.
17:24:04 <azeem_MUC> .
17:24:05 <azeem_MUC> Affordable: Transportation to Munich will be cheap, as there are a lot of direct flights and good
17:24:08 <azeem_MUC> connections. Venue and network will be free. We will probably use budget options (university
17:24:11 <azeem_MUC> restaurants and hostels) for food and accomodation, to keep costs low.
17:24:14 <azeem_MUC> .
17:24:23 <azeem_MUC> Local Team: Our local team has lots of experience with Debian and Debconfs, as well as organizing
17:24:26 <azeem_MUC> conferences. We got several long-standing Debian-Developers (including a current press team member
17:24:29 <azeem_MUC> and a former release manager), Limux people and university personell.
17:24:31 <azeem_MUC> Venue: Computer Science building (recently built) of  Munich University for Applied Science, we can
17:24:34 <azeem_MUC> .
17:24:37 <azeem_MUC> get as much as we need, for free. The only thing we would have to pay for is additional security
17:24:40 <azeem_MUC> personell during the night. There are two large auditoriums, and several (enough) smaller lecture
17:24:44 <azeem_MUC> halls and seminar rooms. Hosting Debcamp there is no problem, either.
17:24:47 <azeem_MUC> .
17:24:49 <azeem_MUC> Good Working Spaces: There is lots of space in and around the venue for hacking and hanging out,
17:24:52 <azeem_MUC> including a small park nearby. Furthermore, on good days, Munich offers unique working spaces in
17:24:56 <azeem_MUC> terms of beergardens (which are of course also recrational spaces).
17:24:59 <azeem_MUC> .
17:25:01 <azeem_MUC> Food: We can either take up the offer from the Studentenwerk, the organisation operating the
17:25:04 <azeem_MUC> university restaurants. Of course, the quality is not like in a Michelin-star restaurant, but I have
17:25:07 <azeem_MUC> eaten there for several years during my studies and it is on par with previous Debconf offerings.
17:25:11 <azeem_MUC> Alternatively, we could look into food catering. As for other restaurants and bars, Munich has an
17:25:14 <azeem_MUC> incredible wealth to offer for anything, from Bavarian beer halls, to kosher Israelian bars, to
17:25:18 <azeem_MUC> Ethiopian restaurants.
17:25:20 <azeem_MUC> .
17:25:23 <azeem_MUC> Network: Leibniz Rechenzentrum is the operator of the Munich Research Network (MWN), the venue is
17:25:26 <azeem_MUC> connected with at least 1 GBits fibre optics, and the MWN is connected to X-Win at the same speed.
17:25:30 <azeem_MUC> This will be free as well.
17:25:33 <azeem_MUC> .
17:25:38 <azeem_MUC> Accomodation: We tend to go for hostels, similar to Edinburgh, probably 4-6 bed dorms. Munich is
17:25:41 <azeem_MUC> pretty expensive for lodging, so this is something we decided early on to keep the costs reasonable.
17:25:44 <azeem_MUC> Again, I think this is in line with previous Debconfs. Of course, hotels at a broad price range are
17:25:48 <azeem_MUC> available.
17:25:51 <azeem_MUC> .
17:25:53 <azeem_MUC> Transportation:  Munich is very easy to get to, both for european (via train or car) or
17:25:56 <azeem_MUC> american/asian attendees (via plane). The airport is one of the biggest in europe and has direct
17:25:59 <azeem_MUC> connections to e.g. Atlanta, New York, Boston, San Fransisco, Los Angeles, Sao Paulo and Tokio.
17:26:03 <azeem_MUC> Furthermore, Munich has one of the most comprehensive and dense public transport systems in the
17:26:06 <azeem_MUC> world.
17:26:09 <azeem_MUC> .
17:26:20 <aba_MUC> Access for disabled people: Current standards for disabled people are very good in Germany. As the venue is new, there isn't any problem. E.g. there are 6 elevators in parallel. Of course, public transport is also equipped.
17:26:42 <Hydroxide> ok, thanks, I like that speed :)
17:26:44 <aba_MUC> Budget: Basically venue is free (except for watchman). We put 15 Euro / Person and day for food, and 25 Euro Euro / Person and day for hostel. Which gives with 500 people (and 250 beds) and the usual time about 130k. Some money will be needed for "misc" stuff, so we end at ~150k Euro for the place. Any more money goes to travel sponsorship.
17:27:30 <Hydroxide> #topic priority list description (Banja Luka) (#dc11-talk to chat)
17:27:36 <aba_MUC> stop
17:27:41 <azeem_MUC> Visa: German is part of Schengen, so the visa situation will essentially be as with Caceres. We will
17:27:44 <azeem_MUC> try to get in touch with the german ministry of state (who also run Debian in their embassies) to
17:27:47 <azeem_MUC> done.
17:27:48 <azeem_MUC> sorry
17:27:51 <azeem_MUC> get visa things figured out.
17:27:53 <azeem_MUC> .
17:28:06 <Hydroxide> ok - sorry if you prepared based on the dc10-ified text
17:28:21 <Hydroxide> ok, go ahead Banja Luka
17:28:28 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> We have all these answers posted on our highly detailed wiki, so we'll try to make it as brief as possible right now.
17:28:33 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> but there we go :)
17:28:34 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> 1. "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees
17:28:42 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> We have full government support, meaning they'll be our main financial sponsor. What it means is that the costs to the DebConf11 and visitors will be kept at minimum. By having such a support, we'll be able to shift resources towards organizing what we believe will be the best DebConf yet, featuring good speakers, as well as providing all of the resources for the visitors. More details are available here: http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebCo
17:28:42 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> nf11/BanjaLuka#Full_Government_Support.
17:28:47 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> We are very proud to mention the fact that our local activities have already started a public debate on possible switch from Windows-based system to the opensource in city of Banja Luka and local government and we see this conference as great opportunity to present open source technologies, and possibly
17:29:01 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> We would like to remind all ouf you, that in the case of winning the Bid, we would most probably be able to "convert" the whole city of banja luka's infrastructure to Debian.
17:29:07 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> 2. strong, mature, experienced local team
17:29:18 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Our local team consists of many IT professionals from many different IT sectors.
17:29:18 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Besides that, we have members of the Government in our team, and all of these people are VERY experienced and professional.
17:29:25 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Also, we have a team from SARNET (our ISP for the DebConf11).
17:29:25 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> More here: http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf11/BanjaLuka/LocalTeam
17:29:51 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> 3. Venues that are chosen provide a good working spaces. Those spaces are daily maintained in order to provide healthy and functional environments for various gatherings and meetings, and fulfil all of the requests posed in front of a public space, such are functionality, safety, accessibility and other requirements, more here: http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf11/BanjaLuka#Conference_
17:30:02 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> 4. We shall provide excellent network connectivity, offering 1 GE link, connected directly to Budapest Internet Exchange. Address range is practically unlimited. There won�t be traffic filtering of any kind. Venue itself is connected directly to the backbone, so minimal latency is guaranteed (switching would be at the wire-speed, no congestion expected).
17:30:02 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> more here:http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf11/BanjaLuka#Network_connectivity_and_technicalities
17:30:22 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> 5. As stated on our wiki page, we are going to prepare various meals every day, and all kinds of food will be available (veg. normal. for different kind of religious groups)...
17:30:23 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Besides, Banja Luka offers many many restaurants, and since our Venue is going to be in the centre of the city, everything is REALLY close!
17:30:23 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> more here: http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf11/BanjaLuka#Food
17:30:33 <EnisDonKing_BiH> moving on
17:30:37 <EnisDonKing_BiH> suitable accommodation in close proximity
17:30:39 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> next five will be answered by my colleague Enis
17:30:46 <EnisDonKing_BiH> 6. suitable accommodation in close proximity
17:30:53 <EnisDonKing_BiH> On wiki we have shown you the few premium hotels our city has to offer, including prices with detailed info. As for proximity, all of the hotels are located in the town center, and all of them are max 5 minutes away(by taxi or bus) from the both venue buildings.
17:30:54 <EnisDonKing_BiH> more here: http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf11/BanjaLuka#Accommodation
17:31:06 <EnisDonKing_BiH> 7. presentation facilities
17:31:15 <EnisDonKing_BiH> We have a FREE conference building which is equipped with all the modern equipment for the conference.
17:31:15 <EnisDonKing_BiH> more on our wiki page: http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf11/BanjaLuka#Conference_Facilities
17:31:31 <EnisDonKing_BiH> 8. travel costs and time, which is important for most people
17:31:43 <EnisDonKing_BiH> Bosnia and Herzegovina is well connected to Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro, and it is easily accessible by air, bus, or train from any major European destination. Air tickets from within the Europe will range from 30 to 100� depending on exact location. City has it's own Airport witch could provide you a direct line from and to any major world metropolis
17:31:52 <EnisDonKing_BiH> As for public transportation, it's very simple and cheap. Banja Luka is not a huge metropolis, so we have quite simple but very sufficient public transport system. More on details on our wiki: http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf11/BanjaLuka#Arrival
17:32:02 <EnisDonKing_BiH> 9. Visa issues -- yet another important topic
17:32:09 <EnisDonKing_BiH> Detailed information on visa entry process for Bosnia and Herzegovina are available on the page of Ministry of Foreign Affairs: http://www.mfa.gov.ba/. Our government has promised full support when it comes to providing the visas for visitors from all around the world.
17:32:10 <EnisDonKing_BiH> more here: http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf11/BanjaLuka#Visas
17:32:28 <EnisDonKing_BiH> Finally, 10. accessibility, we are taking care of our guests
17:32:33 <EnisDonKing_BiH> Banja Luka has all of the modern age technology built in (signaling for blind people, side-walks are built as friendly for people with disabilities, etc) We are also prepared to organize special shuttle transport between the hotels and venue in order to improve accessibility for our guests.
17:32:50 <EnisDonKing_BiH> that would be it from bosnia for this part of the presentation
17:33:17 <EnisDonKing_BiH> thank you for your time and attention
17:33:18 <Hydroxide> ok, thanks
17:33:50 <Hydroxide> #topic good points of the other bids (Quito) (#dc11-talk to chat)
17:34:00 <Hydroxide> (10 min each max)
17:34:09 <Hydroxide> bureado_UIO / ailefi_UIO: go
17:34:20 <bureado_UIO> Munich
17:34:21 <bureado_UIO> 1) Outstanding connectivity in terms of air/road/train and also Internet access
17:34:24 <bureado_UIO> 2) Experienced local team, definitely know how to host a great conference!
17:34:27 <bureado_UIO> 3) Quiet, productive, FLOSS-supportive region which enables us to do great ammounts of work
17:34:45 <bureado_UIO> Banja Luka
17:34:45 <bureado_UIO> 1) Local team that *desires* to get this done, from experience this helps to get a great conference done!
17:34:48 <bureado_UIO> 2) Connectivity in terms of air travel and Internet access are fair enough for a good part of the attendants
17:34:51 <bureado_UIO> 3) Large array of venue/accommodation options which could provide a more productive DebConf, people wouldn't have to move around too much to do non-DC stuff
17:35:28 <bureado_UIO> That's it.
17:35:45 <Hydroxide> thanks
17:35:59 <Hydroxide> #topic good points of the other bids, 10min max (Munich) (#dc11-talk to chat)
17:36:14 <azeem_MUC> Quito
17:36:42 <azeem_MUC> 1) Their second time bid, they are more experienced now and getting better
17:37:00 <azeem_MUC> 2) The sponsorship situation looks good
17:37:13 <aba_MUC> Bosnia: Amount of already acquired money of course, plus government support (even though the Munich City major isn't too bad either, but well, they have the prime minister).  Also they run the second time, and running again gets some (non-technical) bonus. And of course, it would be nice to not have all european debcon
17:37:18 <aba_MUC> fs in "western" europe.
17:37:33 <aba_MUC> so, I think that are the key points.
17:37:40 <Hydroxide> ok
17:37:47 <Hydroxide> #topic good points of the other bids, 10min max (Banja Luka) (#dc11-talk to chat)
17:38:07 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> we made it short, basically by keywords but hopefully you'll understand it :)
17:38:13 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Quito:
17:38:18 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> * Affordable food and accommodation
17:38:21 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> *Tourism
17:38:41 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> *Experience local team + second time bid builds stronger more experiened team
17:39:11 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> M�
17:39:26 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> * Great road, rail and air connectivity, overall city infrastructure
17:39:36 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> * Experienced, large, and mature local team (limux)
17:39:43 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> * University support for the venue, presentation facilities
17:39:47 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> * Good network connectivity
17:40:11 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> that would be all :)
17:40:16 <Hydroxide> ok thanks
17:40:20 <Hydroxide> #chair moray
17:40:20 <MeetBot> Current chairs: Hydroxide moray
17:40:33 * Hydroxide steps away to grab food briefly
17:40:56 <Hydroxide> moray: thanks for stepping in
17:41:14 <moray> #topic weak points of own bid (Quito) (#dc11-talk to chat)
17:41:24 <bureado_UIO> *  Third time in four years a DebConf is held in a spanish-speaking country (¡hola, amigos!) even if Ecuador has a good tourism infrastructure for english speaking visitors
17:41:29 <bureado_UIO> * Third time in four years a DebConf is held in America, which we think reflects increasing interest and participation while still welcoming our fellow Developers from the other side of the Ocean!
17:41:42 <bureado_UIO> And let me say off-topic at this moment that it's time (and I know we're doing a great deal of work here) to consider a more flexible and assertive north-south option for alternating DCs, aiming to have future DCs in places like Asia and/or Oceania.
17:41:59 <bureado_UIO> * Non-direct routes for specific visitors, e.g., some parts of Europe, Asia, Oceania, which balances with cheap options for America and produces a great travel costs matrix
17:42:02 <bureado_UIO> * Nobody will commit to anything (in terms of transferring money, reserving beds) until we have selected a venue for DC11 and budget-securing times of this year pass, hey, that's business
17:42:19 <bureado_UIO> That's it, thanks.
17:42:34 <moray> bureado_UIO: thanks
17:42:35 <moray> #topic weak points of own bid (Munich) (#dc11-talk to chat)
17:42:46 <azeem_MUC> .
17:42:47 <azeem_MUC> 1) Munich is rather expensive, especially accomodation (but we opt for hostels) - but of course good transport connections keep overall costs adequate
17:43:04 <azeem_MUC> 2) As Munich has more than 1 million inhabitants, not everything is directly nearby. But distances
17:43:07 <azeem_MUC> are manageable compared to other big cities (venue<->hostel is 15 minutes by foot/5 minutes by
17:43:10 <azeem_MUC> public transport)
17:43:13 <azeem_MUC> .
17:43:17 <azeem_MUC> that's it, as far as we can tell
17:43:36 <moray> ok
17:43:45 <moray> #topic weak points of own bid (Banja Luka) (#dc11-talk to chat)
17:43:53 <EnisDonKing_BiH> thanks moray
17:43:58 <EnisDonKing_BiH> we d like to use this time
17:44:06 <EnisDonKing_BiH> to expan on what we believe are the weakness
17:44:08 <EnisDonKing_BiH> of our bid
17:44:11 <EnisDonKing_BiH> we tried really hard
17:44:17 <EnisDonKing_BiH> to identify those problem
17:44:20 <EnisDonKing_BiH> s
17:44:24 <EnisDonKing_BiH> in the beggining
17:44:28 <EnisDonKing_BiH> as well as to offer solutions
17:44:37 <EnisDonKing_BiH> International airport in Sarajevo has limited worldwide connections, as well as limited number of cheap/budget air companies flying on regular schedule [that's why we are also proposing usage of Zagreb, Belgrade and Vienna airports
17:44:47 <EnisDonKing_BiH> in that sense
17:44:58 <EnisDonKing_BiH> we are suggesting usage of airports
17:45:05 <EnisDonKing_BiH> in Zagreb, Belgrade or Vienna
17:45:18 <EnisDonKing_BiH> since each of those airports have great connectivity to our capital
17:45:25 <EnisDonKing_BiH> while Zagreb and Belgrade offer
17:45:32 <EnisDonKing_BiH> fast transport trough car, bus or rail
17:45:38 <EnisDonKing_BiH> to the venue location in Banja Luka
17:45:55 <EnisDonKing_BiH> second point regarding our bid
17:46:03 <EnisDonKing_BiH> is about visa application process
17:46:17 <EnisDonKing_BiH> since Bosnia doesn't have embassies in all of the countries
17:46:25 <EnisDonKing_BiH> from where DebConf visitors are
17:46:35 <EnisDonKing_BiH> visa apllication process might be longer
17:46:47 <EnisDonKing_BiH> however, we already have some solutions for that problem
17:46:59 <EnisDonKing_BiH> first of all, it is possible to request so called entry visa
17:47:07 <EnisDonKing_BiH> on the airport or the border
17:47:14 <EnisDonKing_BiH> and other solution is
17:47:21 <EnisDonKing_BiH> communicating with our dedicated team
17:47:28 <EnisDonKing_BiH> which secured support from the goverment
17:47:34 <EnisDonKing_BiH> and ministry of foreign affairs
17:47:41 <EnisDonKing_BiH> which is in charge for visa approval process
17:47:50 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> also I'm one of the organizers in NYC where visas are really one of the main issues so I should learn how it's all done, + we have govt. to support even send out request to grant a visa manually
17:48:03 <EnisDonKing_BiH> our main goal is to offer our hospitality to all visitors and we'll certainly do everything in our power
17:48:10 <EnisDonKing_BiH> to make the visit / visa process
17:48:13 <EnisDonKing_BiH> as smooth as possible
17:48:20 <EnisDonKing_BiH> thank you for your time
17:48:21 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> :)
17:48:32 <moray> right
17:48:44 <moray> now we go to questions to each bid, 5 minutes each phase, then general questions after that
17:49:04 <moray> #topic questions to Quito (chat in #dc11-talk)
17:49:22 <marga> In the wiki it says it's 22 hostels for 583 people, how many hostels would be used for ~ 300 people?
17:50:42 <bureado_UIO> marga: I see your point. We definitely plan for 300 people (not 500+, though that'd be great and budget-breaker :)
17:50:54 <bureado_UIO> marga: Therefore we'd use around 8 hostels. As you can see, several of thems are even on the same street.
17:51:04 <marga> Is there any chance (maybe falling to a Plan B) to have accomodation and conf in the same building(complex)?
17:51:37 <bureado_UIO> Yes, our Plan C is in Circulo Militar which would provide us to on-site accommodation at least for ca. 150 participants. But we don't really think we'd need to go all the way to Plan C.
17:52:08 <marga> bureado_UIO: even knowing that we value "All in the same place" more than fanciness?
17:53:04 <bureado_UIO> It's not fanciness, it's what's best for the budget and the conference, we had separate venues in DC7 but I don't really see myself attending talks outside the U of E venues.
17:53:18 <bureado_UIO> Of course, it's a point to be taken into account. If costs are feasible, we'd prefer that.
17:53:25 <Clint> bureado_UIO: how available is mote sucio?
17:53:48 <aba_MUC> can you please explain what "cheap" means to fly to quito?
17:53:51 <bureado_UIO> But at the moment we don't have any pointers that holding venue/accomodation on the same place is cheaper for us.
17:53:54 <aba_MUC> and also, how bad is the distance?
17:54:01 <bureado_UIO> Clint: 1-2 block away. http://www.in-lan.com/es/0910/guia_quito.html
17:54:13 <bureado_UIO> aba_MUC: In your case, you'd fly through either Amsterdam or Madrid, or the United States.
17:54:24 <aba_MUC> that's in money?
17:54:41 <aba_MUC> and also, does the Amsterdam flight go direclty to quito?
17:54:58 <marga> Ok. Please state in USD the amount of lodging+food per person per day that would have to be paid.
17:55:11 <bureado_UIO> aba_MUC: AFAICT, it depends on the day, but there's a scale in Bonaire IIRC in the case of KLM.
17:55:15 <bureado_UIO> aba_MUC: I'll quote you ASAP.
17:55:30 <bureado_UIO> marga: 25 USD/night, only lunch. Includes breakfast at the hotel.
17:55:41 <bureado_UIO> aba_MUC: Suppose you travel on April, it's 1100 USD.
17:55:44 <bureado_UIO> aba_MUC: Round-trip.
17:56:01 <bureado_UIO> 200+ USD if you don't have a visa for transiting the US.
17:56:12 <bureado_UIO> That's 800 EUR.
17:56:17 <moray> questions to Munich (chat in #dc11-talk)
17:56:23 <moray> #topic questions to Munich (chat in #dc11-talk)
17:56:35 <aba_MUC> re questions in #-talk:
17:56:36 <moray> sorry, time was up for Quito
17:56:44 <aba_MUC> re policial support for Munich: next local elections are in 2014. And of course as we have an written statement that they support us, and germans don't move away from written statements so easily. Also, we don't get money from local gvmnt, but only "stuff" like free venue from University.
17:57:10 <aba_MUC> Of course if munich is choosen, we'll ask the city major to be patron of debconf - which basically means nothing finacially, but makes it easier to collect mone
17:57:13 <aba_MUC> y / support from local companies.
17:57:29 <azeem_MUC> (and we get the festival ballroom for the Debian-Day in the old city hall via the city council)
17:57:48 <aba_MUC> which isn't money either, but would be quite expansive if we bought that :)
17:57:53 <marga> aba_MUC: I believe the question was what were your plans in case the government sponsoring failed.
17:58:02 <moray> [I think aba_MUC and azeem_MUC are answering questions posed earlier in #dc11-talk, though it might be better to wait to be asked them :) ]
17:58:04 <aba_MUC> marga: ah. As we don't get sponsorship ...
17:58:21 <aba_MUC> the only thing is that we need to move debday to the university instead of city hall.
17:58:54 <azeem_MUC> next?
17:58:59 <Clint> how many hostels are likely to be used?
17:59:00 <marga> Ok, then, regarding accommodation: How many hostels would be used? Are they all at the same distance?
17:59:10 <azeem_MUC> Clint: 1-2 we guess
17:59:15 <marga> Is there any chance to have accomodation and conf in the same building(complex)?
17:59:21 <azeem_MUC> the Munich hostels are sometimes 500+ beds
17:59:22 <aba_MUC> marga: no
17:59:43 <marga> Quito's planning on hosting a mixed IPv6/IPv4 network for DC11, if selected, in order to support adoption of IPv6, which is a great deal of the work we do at LACNIC. 'Unlimited' addresses worry us, what are your plans on deploying IPv6 services?
17:59:44 <aba_MUC> the hostels are all next to each other.
18:00:18 <aba_MUC> marga: eh, we'll make sure to have IPv6 if necessary. But as that wasn't asked yet ...
18:00:40 <aba_MUC> (german universities are about to deploy IPv6, so that won't be an issue.)
18:00:54 <aba_MUC> nothing that worries me, except that we didn't check yet :)
18:01:04 <marga> Please state in USD the amount of lodging+food per person per day that would have to be paid.
18:01:17 <azeem_MUC> marga: before or after greece goes down? ;)
18:01:20 <aba_MUC> ah, in USD. Let me check what that's to euro :)
18:01:24 <aba_MUC> (and that will change)
18:01:41 <marga> Yeah, I know, but we can't compare otherwise
18:01:57 <aba_MUC> give me a few seconds ...
18:02:17 <aba_MUC> lodging is 30, food is 20 (or so)
18:02:33 <aba_MUC> however bosnias currency is linked to euro, so it might make sense to compare euros.
18:02:51 <azeem_MUC> food really depends on what options we take; if we organize breakfast buffet and university restaurant, it might go down to 10-15
18:02:59 <marga> Ok, so let's go for Euros.
18:03:04 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> http://www.oanda.com/currency/converter/
18:03:37 <aba_MUC> so 25 euro for loddging, and 15 euro for food (or probably less, we didn't optimze food up to now)
18:03:44 <marga> Ok.
18:04:09 <moray> #topic questions to Banja Luka (chat in #dc11-talk)
18:04:24 <marga> I'm a bit concerned about the lack of DebConf experience in the team.  How many of you are planning on going to DC10?
18:04:45 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> marga, at least 5 people
18:05:06 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> even if more, in case we get DC11 we're planning to ask money from the govt. so even more of us can come
18:05:19 <marga> So, next question: What are your backup plans in case politics or reality hits and government support disappears partly or totally? How would it affect your venue/accommodation options? How would it affect your budget?
18:05:28 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> but at this point at least 5 people, since there's a lot more members that have been helping with organization of other events
18:06:20 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> marga, with the binding papers we got, no matter what happens as long as there is Republika Srpska we're getting money and the support, now if such dissasters hits to destroy whole govt. that's the only case we're left without support from them
18:06:31 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> otherwise that's not acceptable
18:06:40 <EnisDonKing_BiH> also, I'd like to add
18:06:48 <EnisDonKing_BiH> that we are not stopping on goverment support
18:06:53 <EnisDonKing_BiH> we did that great job
18:06:57 <EnisDonKing_BiH> of securing the funds
18:07:07 <EnisDonKing_BiH> but we are also thinking about other partners
18:07:10 <EnisDonKing_BiH> and sponsors
18:07:19 <aba_MUC> what are the opening times for the venue? 24x7? or any restrictions?
18:07:24 <marga> Please, the question is what happens if it disappears, we are not delving into the reasons.
18:07:33 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> aba_MUC, 24/7
18:07:38 <aba_MUC> good
18:08:03 <azeem_MUC> what about dam's question?
18:08:06 <marga> The first two venues are official/cultural buildings. DebConf attendees are not the most "civilized" (in the bad sense) crowd. Would this be a problem? You know, round-the-clock mao, beverage over the printer, etc.
18:08:10 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> marga, we have other options, just as we got the Internet, govt. really has nothing to do with it, mtel and bhtelecom are there right with sponsorship
18:08:15 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> as well as other big IT companies
18:08:49 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> marga, that's why we are considering Banski Dvori, we could have whole building to ourselves while govt. building is strictly ... "business" type building
18:09:08 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> so that's why we are more aligned to banski dvori, which would be all ours, no dressing to behavior rules
18:09:09 <marga> To ourselves == Do whatever we want?
18:09:27 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> marga, absolutely not, I meant to our conduct, rules we make
18:09:44 <marga> Is there any chance to have accomodation and conf in the same building(complex)?
18:09:47 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> marga, we would still have security guards since it would be open 24/7 and so on, but we wouldn't have to follow "govt/city" rules
18:10:11 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> marga, hotel bosnia which has 500 people capacity with 300 rooms is literally 30meters from banski dvori
18:10:22 <marga> ok
18:10:36 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> marga, and banski dvori is so big you could even sleep in it, but hotel bosnia ... on one of the pictures you can see how close i tis
18:10:40 <moray> time's up
18:10:42 <marga> Please state in € the amount of lodging+food per person per day that would have to be paid.
18:11:00 <moray> please just answer anything hanging before we move to the general questions
18:11:34 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> please let me remind you that we have full govt support so not really much would be needed since we aim to have most of people sponsored but without that 20 euros sleeping 10 food
18:11:44 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> 30-35 euros for whole day really
18:12:08 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> anything else?
18:12:22 <marga> No, next phase
18:12:23 <moray> For the general questions, it's preferable to ask questions that apply to all bids, and bidders please definitely avoid using questions to attack other bids!
18:12:38 <moray> #topic general questions to bids (chat in #dc11-talk)
18:13:01 <aba_MUC> (I still have an banja luca one, sorry) - does gvmnt support include (partial) travel support?
18:13:29 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> aba_MUC, good one, since that's what we are aiming for! this way we would resolve our biggest weakness, to get to the place
18:13:43 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> we're planning to have organized buses in peak when everyone is coming in Zagreb
18:13:47 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> that's one of the ideas
18:14:00 <moray> Please ask questions on #dc11-talk and they will be passed on to here.
18:14:04 <aba_MUC> but not for the flights or so? (just to avoid misunderstandings)
18:14:12 <moray> Bid people please freely *answer* questions as they apply to you.
18:14:13 <EnisDonKing_BiH> also it is very important to notice that this question is also related to people from Debian, in terms of previous experience when it comes to travel costs
18:14:14 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> aba_MUC, so besides accomodation/food we're targeting to have travel sponsored at least to some extent, especially for places that are far away, South America ie
18:14:32 <aba_MUC> ok, thanks
18:15:22 <moray> OK, revised plan, we open discussion here :)
18:15:41 <Hydroxide> only until 13:25 :)
18:15:54 <bureado_UIO> Ok, no one has asked us about it, but we also count on CEDIA which is a nationwide network linking cities and universities in Ecuador, so we really think the social impact for technologically-aware remote locations such as Guayaquil, Cuenca and Loja will be achieved in DebConf11, if selected, and that makes a great letter of presentation.
18:16:15 <bureado_UIO> It's a 40 Mbps link. That'll serve us for backup streaming sites in GYE and national streaming.
18:16:33 * Hydroxide encourages more questions
18:16:34 <Clint> what is the best beer that munich has to offer?
18:16:39 <azeem_MUC> Augustiner
18:16:45 <aba_MUC> Clint: opinions are different.
18:16:46 <Ganneff> assuming we get in a deadlock like last year - would any bid be willing to step back? and if so, in favor of which other?
18:16:50 <marga> bureado_UIO: did you mention something about travel from SouthEast Asia / Oceania?
18:16:53 <aba_MUC> and we want to avoid getting people stabbed right now
18:17:03 <madduck> aba_MUC: no, azeem_MUC is right. ;)
18:17:18 <dam> question to all bids: will you bid for DC12 if not selected for DC11?
18:17:25 <EnisDonKing_BiH> *suggestion* could we get +m back again and transfer questions to the ops? it is very difficult to give answers in such order
18:17:34 <aba_MUC> dam: if DC11 is in europe, we won't bid for DC12
18:17:46 <moray> aba_MUC: but you would a future year?
18:17:47 <azeem_MUC> it has to be said that another negative point of Munich is that you don't get 10+ different beer types in bars - usually just a lager and a wheat beer
18:17:55 <bureado_UIO> marga: Yes, LAN Airlines has a local subsidiary which is LAN Ecuador. Codesharing, same operation standards. So people flying from/to say, Melbourne or Tokyo, will be glad to know they can fly Santiago, then Quito on the same airline.
18:18:08 <azeem_MUC> moray: sure
18:18:23 <azeem_MUC> moray: but that'd depend on german-wide consensus again as well
18:18:24 <aba_MUC> moray: sure, but might be that for DC13 the german team decides to prefer Berlin :)
18:18:39 <Clint> what percentages of each of the three local teams actually live within a short distance of the target venues?
18:18:43 <aba_MUC> (we'll see when it's time to make up an bid)
18:18:45 <Hydroxide> EnisDonKing_BiH: you can answer in any order you like
18:18:52 <marga> bureado_UIO: how does that compare to Munich is what I'm interested in? Is it cheaper/faster?
18:19:02 <bureado_UIO> dam: ATM that is not certain, it depends on how many Debian-awareness (fanatism <g>) we can raise in 2010 and 2011 with local events such as minidebconfs et al.
18:19:04 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> this is getting out of hand, there's too many people talking at same time ...
18:19:12 <bureado_UIO> marga: Let me quote it for you in terms of money and time.
18:19:22 <Ganneff> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: thats what this 10 mins are about...
18:19:27 <azeem_MUC> Clint: I live like 10 minutes away
18:19:35 <Hydroxide> the bosnia team is getting overwhelmed with -m... let's catch up on all the questions asked so far
18:19:37 <bureado_UIO> Clint: The whole 5-people lead team for Quito live in Quito. About 90% of the people supporting the bid live in Quito.
18:19:41 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Ganneff, :)
18:19:44 <aba_MUC> Clint: enough very near.
18:19:53 <bureado_UIO> Clint: My workplace is 2-blocks away from the hostels, 3-blocks away from the venue, 1-block away from mote sucio.
18:20:04 <bureado_UIO> I'm 0.25 USD away if I'm lazy.
18:20:52 <Ganneff> Hydroxide: so some +v/+o pasting questions again to make sure they are answered?
18:21:17 <Hydroxide> well, since bosnia isn't using the +m to catch up on answering questions, I'll -m again
18:21:40 <Hydroxide> carry on :)
18:21:50 <Ganneff> assuming we get in a deadlock like last year - would any bid be willing to step back? and if so, in favor of which other?
18:21:51 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> 7-8
18:22:26 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> even more really
18:22:38 <aba_MUC> Ganneff: we'll see when we are there. Of course at the end there needs to be exactly one place for DC11 :)
18:23:19 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> we have no intention of steping back since this is our second candidature and it's really been a lot of sweat so far
18:23:29 <EnisDonKing_BiH> we are confident in our bid and strong local team prepared to do what's necessary in order to have best possible experience for our guests
18:23:35 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Ganneff, ^
18:23:42 <aba_MUC> (and also, we discussed on the list that in case we fail to decide on an place, we want at least to get down to two places, and have an open issue list for each remaining place. But let's see ...)
18:24:14 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> perseverance! :)
18:24:21 <stockholm> hi
18:24:41 <moray> stockholm: you're just in time to ask a random question to bids
18:24:44 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> starg, you made it :)
18:24:49 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> uh sorry
18:24:51 <stockholm> moray: cool!
18:24:52 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> stockholm, :)
18:25:16 <stockholm> i would like to know the rough estimated time the teams put into their bids, all things considered
18:25:28 <aba_MUC> (how does that influence decision?)
18:25:35 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> at least 9 months for us
18:25:43 <azeem_MUC> stockholm: we didn't keep track
18:25:52 <azeem_MUC> we met every week for 1-2 hours for the last half year
18:26:00 <azeem_MUC> plus loads of additional organizing
18:26:08 <stockholm> aba_MUC: it tells me how much efford went into it, and how thorow the thing is in general
18:26:36 <stockholm> (i looked at the bids and some looked less well done then others, hence the question)
18:27:11 <Hydroxide> ok, end of 10 minutes
18:27:14 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> we put last 9 months into this ... how much time per day ... I'd say a lot, almost every day on irc as well
18:27:35 <Hydroxide> thanks for the questions all
18:27:38 <moray> are we going to ask bids to answer things that were hanging still?
18:27:57 <moray> e.g. MUC answered 'would you bid again another time?' but I didn't see that from others
18:28:06 <Hydroxide> moray: BIH answered too
18:28:13 <bureado_UIO> and we did. Let me repost.
18:28:18 <azeem_MUC> stockholm: -> #dc11-talk
18:28:23 <bureado_UIO> dam: ATM that is not certain, it depends on how many Debian-awareness (fanatism <g>) we can raise in 2010 and 2011 with local events such as minidebconfs et al.
18:28:28 <Hydroxide> and MUC and BIH also answered the "how much time did you spend" question
18:28:32 <bureado_UIO> s/many/much/
18:28:41 <Hydroxide> thanks
18:28:57 <Hydroxide> so now the 5-minute break or do we want to skip that?
18:29:06 <bureado_UIO> Hydroxide: I was going to answer stockholm on the other channel, but well, we're doing this since November 2008. We've spent the last two months in the streets waving this 'please help us' letter which was a success.
18:29:07 <aba_MUC> break.
18:29:12 <Hydroxide> ok :)
18:29:15 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> for us, skip, we're on a roll :)
18:29:34 <Hydroxide> well, since it's in the agenda and at least one team wants it, we'll do it
18:29:42 <moray> #topic Pause
18:30:06 <marga> So, now it's a 5 minutes break.  I've been going through priorities and giving "stronger" "weaker" punctuation for each, I'd suggest the others to the same.
18:30:11 <Hydroxide> continue at :35
18:30:30 <moray> marga: right, we need some kind of ordering for each point
18:30:46 <moray> the idea is to get, for each priority list point, an ordering that people agree on
18:31:23 <Hydroxide> are we doing +1 / -1 or +1 / 0 / -1?
18:31:32 <moray> that is, that the other bid teams can agree on
18:31:51 <bureado_UIO> iirc last year we did +10-1
18:31:57 <bureado_UIO> sorry slash key
18:32:00 <Hydroxide> ok
18:32:02 <marga> Hydroxide: I was doing +1/ +0.5 / 0.  I like to stay positive :)
18:32:07 <Hydroxide> haha :)
18:32:08 <Hydroxide> let's do that
18:32:29 <moray> yes, that helps people avoid getting too defensive about their bids' weaker points
18:33:01 <moray> all bids have stronger and weaker aspects, the idea is for us to think about them and come up with what's best for DebConf and thus best for all of us :)
18:35:17 <Hydroxide> ok, continue?
18:35:24 <aba_MUC> moment
18:35:32 <moray> #topic priority list evaluation
18:35:42 <aba_MUC> and I'd like to go with a bit more fine grained, like -1, -.5, 0, .5, 1 or so
18:35:51 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: that would be way too much arguing
18:35:57 <moray> I agree with Hydroxide
18:35:59 <aba_MUC> Hydroxide: I disagree, but well
18:36:12 <aba_MUC> and please wait for azeem to come back
18:36:37 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: we can wait a couple of minutes but the reason for having two +v is to avoid a single point of failure
18:36:48 <aba_MUC> 1 minute is enough :)
18:36:56 <Hydroxide> ok :) we continue at :37
18:37:11 <moray> Hydroxide: that's two minutes after the announced time :p
18:37:14 <Hydroxide> ok
18:37:17 <Hydroxide> we continue now
18:37:56 <moray> #topic priority list evaluation: 1. 'affordable' for both sponsors and attendees
18:38:36 <aba_MUC> how do we do that? does someone try to summarize? or should everyone propose his own result?
18:39:35 <moray> all the bids sound 'afforable' in the sense that they would work sufficiently financially
18:40:02 <marga> The quoted prices were 19€ / 30€ / 45 € per person per night, for lodging.  Regarding travel, Quito is better for the Americas, Munich/Bosnia are better for Europe.  Bosnia and Munich both have government sponsoring which is good, but we generally don't trust that SO much.  My points for this item are: +1/+0.5/+0.5.  But it could also be 1/1/1.
18:40:35 <moray> €150,000 cash would be pretty useful though, even if we don't put 100% trust in it coming
18:40:44 <aba_MUC> eh, that sounds a bit too Quito related POV
18:40:56 <aba_MUC> s/related/centric
18:41:04 <moray> it's not fair to entirely discount promised money
18:41:14 <azeem_MUC> of course not
18:41:21 <aba_MUC> especially as we'd have two debconfs in sucession in Americas
18:41:24 <moray> as you could just as well worry about -- e.g. as mentioned above -- what will happen to exchange rates in 2 years
18:41:28 <Hydroxide> I'd probably do 1/0.5/1 - munich and bosnia are both affordable with the current plans but local cost in munich are more expensive
18:41:39 <Hydroxide> for both attendees and lodging
18:41:49 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> correction, promised and binding papers are not the same thing
18:42:04 <aba_MUC> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: agreed.
18:42:13 <Hydroxide> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: the binding papers have no specific monetary amounts
18:42:14 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> and we have it signed on paper
18:42:28 <aba_MUC> I think Bosnia might be a bit better than Munich here (or not), but I don't think Munich is worse than Quito.
18:42:40 <moray> if we're using these to rank, then the Bosnian financial arrangements do sound best
18:42:41 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Hydroxide, I talked to govt regarding this, they can't promise you exact number since that year is not even coming around + that year is not even in the budget!~
18:42:42 <aba_MUC> (and Bosnia is better than Quito)
18:43:03 <Hydroxide> can we agree on something then?
18:43:04 <bureado_UIO> <+AbsintheSyringe_BiH> correction, promised and binding papers are not the same thing <- I have to differ, from my personal POV and experience, I have had 'binding papers' (whatever THAT means) in my hands for sponsoring people to DC7, and never happened. So I think it's just fair to discuss in terms of our stable budgets.
18:43:16 <EnisDonKing_BiH> Hydroxide, as explained, it also depends on final budget proposal. keyword on the paper is "full financial support", please take notice
18:43:27 <aba_MUC> Hydroxide: I'd propose .5/1/1 or 0/.5/1. But others might disagree.
18:43:34 <bureado_UIO> That's why I asked (and you successfully gived me insights) about backup plans. So that's it.
18:44:13 <Hydroxide> quito is definitely not less affordable than the other two imho...
18:44:14 <marga> aba: Quito is much cheaper, and I think that's one of the main affordability points.
18:44:15 <Clint> are we all using UIO/MUC/BIH as the order here?
18:44:19 <bureado_UIO> People with EUR (e.g., visitors from MUC and BIH) would get a GREAT deal of USD for their money, and then a GREAT deal of things for their USD in return.
18:44:20 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> I don't know any other bids having any papers, but we have signed document that govt. will take all the financial sponsorship so I really don't get what's not to understand there
18:44:22 <Hydroxide> Clint: yes
18:44:34 <bureado_UIO> I mean, 2 USD meals.
18:44:49 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: all the local costs in quito are much cheaper
18:44:50 <moray> bureado_UIO: er, that's not quite as true any more about the EUR/USD
18:44:53 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> you can have meal in Banja Luka for 1 USD for a meal, but it's not a good meal
18:45:09 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> we were trying to think of people as human beans not just give them the worst and cheapest
18:45:12 <moray> bureado_UIO: and we can't rely on it in 2 years, after Greece etc. go bust :)
18:45:12 <aba_MUC> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: we shouldn't try to get to worst quality offers in all locations :)
18:45:13 <bureado_UIO> moray: I mean, for the foreseeable future, you'll get more USD for your EUR.
18:45:17 <Clint> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: how much for a plate of ćevapčići?
18:45:22 <bureado_UIO> moray: Well, you live there, I trust you bether.
18:45:23 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Clint, 2 euros
18:45:35 <Hydroxide> can most of us agree on 1/.5/1 ?
18:45:48 <moray> maybe each bid should say their view on those numbers?
18:45:57 <Hydroxide> ok
18:45:58 <bureado_UIO> We do agree on 1/.5/1
18:46:56 <Hydroxide> going once...
18:47:18 <Hydroxide> going twice...
18:47:29 * aba_MUC already said his opinion
18:47:44 <aba_MUC> but of course it's not my decision anyways
18:47:59 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: the consensus seems to disagree with you about quito, and what we said is compatible with what you said for the rest
18:48:06 <Hydroxide> ok, moving on
18:48:07 <moray> #topic priority list evaluation: 2. strong, mature, experienced local team
18:49:40 <Hydroxide> ok, in terms of strong local team I know both munich and banja luka have that, in the sense of passionate and putting in lots of work. (I know less about many of the quito people except for the core two or three people who I do know are experienced and involved)
18:50:03 <Hydroxide> but I would say in terms of mature and experienced munich has an edge over bosnia, though both are sufficient for a good debconf
18:50:22 <bureado_UIO> That's true, unless until DC10. I know Munich people, didn't have the opportunity to meet the Banja Luka team.
18:50:22 <Hydroxide> so I'd say 0.5/1/0.5 but feel free to disagree
18:50:54 <Clint> which bid team members will be helping with DC10?
18:50:56 <bureado_UIO> Hydroxide: It'd have been nice to dispel your worries on our local team before voting.
18:51:02 <bureado_UIO> o/
18:51:10 <bureado_UIO> and ailefi_UIO, if US Embassy cooperates
18:51:18 <marga> I agree with Hydroxide 0.5/1/0.5
18:51:35 <Hydroxide> bureado_UIO: I'm not worried - I did just say that the bosnia team would be sufficient for a good debconf and I ranked your team the same including with some experienced members :)
18:51:45 <bureado_UIO> Right. We'll agree on that, then.
18:51:55 <Hydroxide> ok. 0.5/1/0.5 it is
18:52:17 <Hydroxide> #topic priority list evaluation: 3. good working spaces
18:52:43 <Hydroxide> thoughts? (I didn't rank this one)
18:53:05 <aba_MUC> we have good ones in munich. can't judge about any others
18:53:05 <bureado_UIO> I'd say rate us equally.
18:53:29 <Hydroxide> anyone disagree?
18:53:34 <Hydroxide> is that a 1/1/1?
18:53:43 <marga> 1/1/1 for me too
18:54:10 * Hydroxide reminds AbsintheSyringe_BiH and EnisDonKing_BiH to pay attention here :)
18:54:23 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Hydroxide, I"m here :)
18:54:25 <Hydroxide> but, ok, seems like nobody is objecting to 1/1/1 for this
18:54:36 <EnisDonKing_BiH> we'd really like to see more people
18:54:39 <EnisDonKing_BiH> involved
18:54:44 <EnisDonKing_BiH> in points process
18:54:51 <EnisDonKing_BiH> doesnt make sense to be subjective from our side
18:54:54 <Hydroxide> yes. I think more people were involved for the controversial ones
18:54:55 <EnisDonKing_BiH> or to have only 2 people
18:55:05 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> indeed
18:55:06 <Hydroxide> people can discuss more freely in #-talk
18:55:12 <EnisDonKing_BiH> with all due respect, only 2 people so far have expressed
18:55:15 <EnisDonKing_BiH> their view
18:55:16 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> what happens with others where did everyone go, moray ?
18:55:20 <EnisDonKing_BiH> in terms of points
18:55:29 <bureado_UIO> aren't Clint or moray voting? just from the people I know that have been around.
18:55:38 <EnisDonKing_BiH> lets try to get more Debian people involved
18:55:52 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> where are the people that are voting, or it's based all going to be based on two people
18:56:17 <Clint> i don't think anyone is voting; it's "consensus"
18:56:35 <Hydroxide> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: I think people are more vocal for the controversial items
18:56:39 <marga> The idea is that this isn't a vote, but consensus.  So, points are proposed and if nobody disagrees, noted down.
18:56:44 <Hydroxide> ok
18:57:00 <Hydroxide> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: people being silent does not mean they're ignoring, it means they agree
18:57:09 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Hydroxide, ah ok
18:57:12 <Hydroxide> #topic priority list evaluation: 4. excellent network connectivity
18:57:19 <moray> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: if you disagree you're meant to say so *yourself* in this part
18:57:20 <azeem_MUC> I don't even know what "good working spaces" would mean, so I don't have an opinion
18:57:27 <moray> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: not wait for 'global' people to do so on your behalf
18:57:55 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> k
18:58:00 <Hydroxide> for the network connectivity I would say 0.5/1/1 - quito has improved from "it is a problem" in DC10 to "it will be fine" in DC11, but MUC/BIH seem even better
18:58:40 <bureado_UIO> We'd agree with that, even if we're sure now that this will reach DC expectations. Surpassing problems such as we had in DC6.
18:58:50 * Hydroxide agrees with that too
18:59:00 <aba_MUC> eh
18:59:09 <aba_MUC> we have *excellenct* connections in Munich
18:59:14 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: agreed
18:59:15 <aba_MUC> of course, bosnia isn't too bad either.
18:59:21 <EnisDonKing_BiH> too bad is not the wording
18:59:23 <EnisDonKing_BiH> id choose
18:59:26 <EnisDonKing_BiH> dear friend
18:59:33 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> aba_MUC, we have 1gb my friend, that's more then "not bad"
18:59:36 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: bosnia and you are both offering 1 Gbps links IIRC
18:59:36 <bureado_UIO> can we move along?
18:59:40 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> that might even be best right now
18:59:41 <aba_MUC> EnisDonKing_BiH: "too bad" is a good word in english
18:59:50 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: and both well connected to the backbones
18:59:51 <azeem_MUC> Hydroxide: we're not sure whether the building is connected at 1 or 10 GBit
18:59:55 <aba_MUC> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: "too bad" is really a "well done"
19:00:04 <EnisDonKing_BiH> Id just just great
19:00:05 <aba_MUC> sorry if you took it wrong.
19:00:05 <moray> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: er, you mean 'not bad' is?
19:00:06 <azeem_MUC> so let's say 1 Gbit
19:00:09 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> aba_MUC, I didn;'t know you teach english as well
19:00:12 <Hydroxide> azeem_MUC: honestly, DebConf doesn't ever saturate that much :)
19:00:12 <aba_MUC> but ok, 0.5/1/1 then
19:00:13 <moray> er, aba_MUC ^
19:00:20 <bureado_UIO> 14:29 <@Hydroxide> azeem_MUC: honestly, DebConf doesn't ever saturate that much :)
19:00:23 <bureado_UIO> That's true.
19:00:24 <aba_MUC> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: well, only en_DE
19:00:29 <Clint> i think we have agreement
19:00:31 <Hydroxide> ok
19:00:50 <Hydroxide> #topic priority list evaluation: 5. quality and quantity of food in close proximity
19:00:58 <moray> this point is about the *immediate* proximity, i.e. short walk from the building
19:01:17 <aba_MUC> 1 for munich - supermarkets, shops etc in < 3 minutes
19:01:27 <moray> and is about restaurants more than shops :)
19:01:40 <bureado_UIO> I'd said for us we have a 1. Whatever you'd like is either inside the venue, next door your hotel or within 1 minute of walking distance.
19:01:45 <aba_MUC> moray: "enough" - didn't count.
19:01:50 <aba_MUC> but plenty
19:01:53 <bureado_UIO> And then again we have the costs issue, which allows you to buy in quantity.
19:01:56 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> everything in Banja Luka is literally 10 minutes away as we set it up
19:02:01 <azeem_MUC> certainly also around accomodation
19:02:02 <bureado_UIO> I mean, quantity.
19:02:05 <moray> bureado_UIO: restaurants need the venue?
19:02:12 <moray> bureado_UIO: again, not shops so much in this point
19:02:13 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> accomodation and venue is not at the same place but this is from banski dvori venue looking over banski dvori hotel
19:02:13 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> http://wiki.debconf.org/upload/d/d7/Banski_dvor9.jpg
19:02:14 <marga> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: and how many is "everything" ?
19:02:19 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> http://wiki.debconf.org/upload/8/85/Banski_dvor3.jpg
19:02:21 <moray> (maybe it should be rephrased :)
19:02:23 <bureado_UIO> moray: Both international and local. And near the venue and hotels too.
19:02:38 <EnisDonKing_BiH> we have restaurant inside the venue and multitple restaurtants within walking distance. also, quality of food for asked price is clearly better over offering in other bids, with all due respect
19:02:44 <moray> the point is that many attendees like to wander out from the venue in groups and discuss over a meal
19:02:47 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> marga, venue to accomodation, 30seconds walk, cross the street, shops venue, it's center of the city really
19:02:48 <azeem_MUC> we prepared a map as well: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=108526838004449668904.000474559864301fd48f7&ll=48.143582,11.579247&spn=0.042267,0.089521&z=14
19:02:57 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> everything is near by, from food to accomodation to venue to everything literally
19:03:11 <Hydroxide> do the local restaurants cater to different dietary restrictions, in addition to the sponsored food?
19:03:13 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> also food should be sponsored as well, we have a restourant in venue as well, big one
19:03:19 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> yes
19:03:30 <bureado_UIO> I'd say 1/1/.5 -- definitely walking around for food like in '10-minute away' is not an incentive for me.
19:03:33 <bureado_UIO> 14:32 <@Hydroxide> do the local restaurants cater to different dietary restrictions, in addition to the sponsored food?
19:03:34 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> for breakfast and midnnight snack and so on
19:03:37 <bureado_UIO> Definitely.
19:03:38 <bureado_UIO> Take into account we take LOTS of tourists here.
19:03:43 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> definitely not
19:03:47 <bureado_UIO> You'll find vegan/vegetarian/kosher and specific needs all around.
19:03:48 <aba_MUC> Hydroxide: nothing to worry here.
19:03:56 <marga> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: the question is: HOW MANY different restaurants/shops can you find in close proximity?
19:03:56 <Clint> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: can you specify the 10 minutes in km?
19:03:59 <bureado_UIO> gluten free, lactose free
19:04:06 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> marga, at least 10
19:04:08 <bureado_UIO> http://www.magicbeanquito.com/
19:04:13 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Clint, 0.3km
19:04:18 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> to 0.5
19:04:19 <bureado_UIO> See this, it's 1 block away from accommodations. I really like this place.
19:04:27 <EnisDonKing_BiH> bureado_UIO we strongly disagree with your opinion there, since restaruts are across the venue with more in walking distance of 300 to 500 m
19:04:32 <Clint> that's a very slow walk
19:04:40 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Clint, excatly
19:04:45 <Hydroxide> ok can we reach some conclusion here?
19:04:49 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> you can literally see hotel from the venue entrace http://wiki.debconf.org/upload/8/85/Banski_dvor3.jpg
19:04:56 <bureado_UIO> EnisDonKing_BiH: I'm sorry, check the backlog. You said so. Thanks for claryfing. But I still strongly think your food offer is below Munich and ours.
19:05:04 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> you have restaurant in it, you have shops around it in 0.3 km radius, it's center of city
19:05:13 <bureado_UIO> EnisDonKing_BiH: Which you compensate in other stuff, of course!
19:05:21 <moray> bureado_UIO: I can't see why you think that from what they've listed?
19:05:29 <moray> apart from the misleading '10 minutes'
19:05:29 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> bureado_UIO, unfortunately you think like that for every stance so far for our bid
19:05:37 <Hydroxide> fwiw, in my draft ranking I listed 1/1/1 - bosnia and ecuador have cheaper food but munich probably caters more successfully to different dietary restrictions
19:05:48 <moray> Hydroxide: which matters to you personally :p
19:05:51 <Hydroxide> but all are likely to be plenty sufficient
19:05:57 <Hydroxide> moray: and to enough other attendees, but yes ):
19:06:00 <Hydroxide> err, )
19:06:03 * aba_MUC doesn't mind too much
19:06:07 <Hydroxide> s/emoticon//
19:06:22 <bureado_UIO> Hydroxide: I'd said Munich's more expensive and complete, Quito's cheaper and complete, Bosnia's cheaper and might be sufficient. But then again, no offense, we have some pretty special 'cases' on Debian.
19:06:23 <marga> I'd agree with 1/1/1, I don't know why we are discussing this this much.
19:06:33 <bureado_UIO> I mean, I recall scenes from DC6.
19:06:46 <aba_MUC> so, could we just put all other points as 1/1/1, as we'll always find good reasons? :)
19:06:51 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> bureado_UIO, of course, but it's really all in range of 0.3km I even showed you venue looking over to accomodation over the street
19:06:58 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> so 1/1/0.5 is not fair
19:07:02 <moray> bureado_UIO: you seem to be mixing up the venue food and the nearby-restaurant food?
19:07:18 <Hydroxide> does anyone object to 1/1/1 for food?
19:07:26 * aba_MUC not
19:07:53 <EnisDonKing_BiH> we are ok with that as well
19:07:56 <aba_MUC> (if someone objects, we should start with sub-points here)
19:07:56 <bureado_UIO> moray: Both matters. I always give up my food tickets on DC, and some people do, but I wouldn't like to get unexpected food outside. And for the venue part, we're catering, so that's covered.
19:08:00 <bureado_UIO> Hydroxide: I do, but I'll move along.
19:08:10 <Hydroxide> moving along then
19:08:29 <Hydroxide> #topic priority list evaluation: 6. suitable accommodation in close proximity
19:08:48 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> overlooking the accommodation, just cross the street http://wiki.debconf.org/upload/8/85/Banski_dvor3.jpg
19:08:58 <bureado_UIO> We're fine on that respect too. And our accommodation options will provide us with Internet and breakfast facilities (as well as kitchen and other ammenities) so we can cover most non-DC needs too.
19:09:23 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> balcony view, from side of the bulding it would even seem closer http://wiki.debconf.org/upload/d/d7/Banski_dvor9.jpg
19:09:35 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> also we are covering part of costs!
19:09:36 <marga> So, here, Bosnia has 1 hotel, 30 meters away, Munich has 2 hostels 15 minutes away, Quito has about 8 hostels, on the same street.  My personal punctuation is 0/0.5/1
19:09:45 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> + it's high quality accomodation
19:09:46 <aba_MUC> as again for network: we shouldn't check who's best but just "does it work good enough"
19:10:02 <azeem_MUC> I don't think we need network at the accomodation anyway
19:10:03 <azeem_MUC> but ok
19:10:10 <aba_MUC> marga: Hotels are *way* nearer, but well.
19:10:15 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> it's really top stuff and it's really really http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf11/BanjaLuka/Accommodation
19:10:22 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> 4 hotels we were considering, again in 0.3km radius
19:10:26 <aba_MUC> marga: and it's only 5 minutes away
19:10:29 <aba_MUC> not 15.
19:10:34 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> besides bosnia which is 30m away, we have other options
19:10:38 <aba_MUC> (except if you want to do some excercise)
19:10:39 <azeem_MUC> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: but those look pretty expensive
19:10:54 <bureado_UIO> I'll introduce a point here regarding 'suitable accommodation', and it's about nightlife options.
19:10:57 <Hydroxide> here Id say quito is OK but it's spread out over lots of separate hotels; munich is doing hostels which could be great like in BB or bad like in cowgate; and bosnia has really close nice hotel and enough money to afford it
19:11:00 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> azeem_, I just said we are planning to take care of taking the partial cost covering!
19:11:01 <azeem_MUC> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: I assumed they were only meant for invitied speakers/people who want a hotel/etc
19:11:02 <Hydroxide> so I'd go 0.5/0/1
19:11:07 <aba_MUC> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: so you put enough money in your balance for hotel for all?
19:11:13 <bureado_UIO> I mean, the district where we're holding spots we have LOTS of options 24/7, which IMHO is a very much looked feature for some attendees.
19:11:16 <marga> aba_MUC: I was quoting the wiki.  It said 15 minutes walking, 5 minutes public transportation, unless it's free, I don't plan to use the transportation.
19:11:30 <moray> people did not like the split accommodation in Edinburgh
19:11:38 <Hydroxide> indeed
19:11:39 <moray> so I think the many-hostel setup isn't ideal
19:11:42 <bureado_UIO> Take, sorry again, the example of DC6. You wouldn't feel enticed to go out and have fun.
19:11:47 <bureado_UIO> moray: Situation's different.
19:11:48 <Hydroxide> and bosnia would be in a single building
19:11:51 <Hydroxide> or the hotel
19:11:54 <bureado_UIO> moray: I had to walk between both hostels in Edinburgh.
19:11:54 <Hydroxide> *for
19:11:55 <aba_MUC> marga: transportation is cheap enough, put night to 28 instead of 25 euro then
19:11:59 <bureado_UIO> moray: We're talking about next-door options here.
19:12:15 <moray> bureado_UIO: er, the Edinburgh ones were already very close on the same street
19:12:18 <bureado_UIO> moray: Those are house-like, 20-30 room hostel each. These provides us with even a greater comfy atmosphere.
19:12:19 <aba_MUC> I'm ok with the original 0/.5/1
19:12:33 <bureado_UIO> moray: I freezed to death walking between them, man! <g>
19:12:36 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> we're fine with taht as well
19:13:04 <aba_MUC> (if there is money in the budget to put all in hotels in bosnia)
19:13:40 <marga> Can the discussion about food be stopped, please?
19:13:41 <moray> 0/.5/1 also sounds right to me
19:13:46 <Hydroxide> so current majority opinion seems 0/0.5/1 - given moray's comment I now agree with that since 8 is a lot less consistent and more hassle than 2
19:13:49 <Hydroxide> ok
19:13:54 <Hydroxide> 0/.5/1 is consensus
19:14:00 <bureado_UIO> I'm sorry, you're forgetting we're talking about the main tourist destination in Ecuador, one of the most importants in South America. Attention to details in this respect clearly gives us an advantage.
19:14:11 <bureado_UIO> Hydroxide: Then again, we're disagreeing with that.
19:14:16 <aba_MUC> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: can you confirm that there is enough money for the hotels for all?
19:14:19 <bureado_UIO> Hydroxide: Move along if you want to, of course.
19:14:30 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> aba_MUC, 5th time, YES
19:14:37 <aba_MUC> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: sorry, didn't see. Thanks.
19:14:51 <marga> aba_MUC: the quoted number was €30 vs €45 for MUC, why wouldn't there be enough money?
19:14:52 <moray> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: we already afforded it in Brazil and Argentina, so you should be able to believe that much :)
19:14:55 <bureado_UIO> And let's get the numbers of sacrificing travel sponsorship that could be achieved using 20 USD/bed/night quotes!
19:15:05 <azeem_MUC> I don't think "enough money" is a problem; I'd rather see cheaper accomodation and more travel sponsorship, really
19:15:15 <Hydroxide> is there anyone from a non-bid country who wants something other than 0/0.5/1 ?
19:15:22 <Hydroxide> (asking because of bureado_UIO's concern)
19:15:24 <bureado_UIO> 14:44 <+azeem_MUC> I don't think "enough money" is a problem; I'd rather see cheaper accomodation and more travel  sponsorship, really
19:15:38 <bureado_UIO> Great, so Quito has a great deal of work done here.
19:16:01 <Hydroxide> going once...
19:16:05 <Clint> the 0 is based on the sheer number of hostels?
19:16:11 <Hydroxide> Clint: yes
19:16:12 <bureado_UIO> Apparently.
19:16:48 <Hydroxide> I would also be ok with 0.5/0.5/1 but I agree it'll be much more difficult to administer 8 than 2
19:17:01 <bureado_UIO> That's why local team is here for!
19:17:02 <moray> Clint: while I didn't think so myself, it turns out post-DC7 that many attendees don't think splitting like that is 'suitable accommodation'
19:17:06 <marga> Clint: with my previous-DC room-arranger hat on, I can say that coordinating lodging at 8 locations is bound to be a mess.
19:17:16 * Clint nods.
19:17:24 <Hydroxide> ok
19:17:29 <Hydroxide> based on that, 0/0.5/1
19:17:36 <bureado_UIO> marga: Right, so let's recall what we said in our bid proposal on this IRC channel about getting the hotels instead of the hostels.
19:17:53 <bureado_UIO> marga: And having 150 people on each hotels. Of course it'd be more expensive, even if it's cheaper than both Bosnia and Munich.
19:18:12 <bureado_UIO> marga: I truly don't think this offers us the best savings/hassles ratio, but that's written down too.
19:18:12 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> we have chepaer options, it's just that we wouldn't settle with second best
19:18:27 <Hydroxide> bureado_UIO: I think there's near-consensus, sorry.
19:18:30 <marga> bureado_UIO: how much more expensive?
19:18:38 <bureado_UIO> marga: 35 USD/night/bed.
19:18:47 <bureado_UIO> marga: On the same zone, I mean.
19:18:56 <bureado_UIO> You can stay or Marriott for 80 USD/night, but that's out of the table.
19:18:59 <marga> bureado_UIO: give us the quote in €, and including food, please.
19:19:07 <bureado_UIO> 29 EUR
19:19:17 <bureado_UIO> Not including volume discounts, of course
19:19:33 <bureado_UIO> Not including government/external sponsorships, of course
19:19:37 <marga> bureado_UIO: that inc. food?
19:19:48 <bureado_UIO> marga: Yes, food was quoted at 5 USD/person, catered.
19:19:53 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> it can't be cheaper then bosnia really, you can literally find accomodation for 5euros, but it's low quality I believe that's the case there as well
19:19:53 <bureado_UIO> marga: And breakfast's included in the room so.
19:19:57 <azeem_MUC> just for reference, Munich gets 10 million tourists a year
19:19:58 * Hydroxide encourages marga to wrap this up shortly :)
19:20:11 <marga> Hydroxide: sorry, but I thought this option was worth considering.
19:20:14 <bureado_UIO> I'd really like to stop the whole quality thing.
19:20:23 <Hydroxide> marga: indeed, which is why I haven't put the next #topic in :)
19:20:26 <bureado_UIO> This is getting annoying and aggressive.
19:20:56 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> can we move on?
19:20:57 <marga> bureado_UIO: ok, so you can choose, either have it at €29/night (and then lose points at #1) with 0.5 here, or have it at €19/night and 0 here.
19:21:31 <bureado_UIO> marga: Would you please remind me of the EUR quotes of Bosnia and Munich?
19:21:42 <marga> bureado_UIO: €30 for Bosnia, €49 for Munich
19:21:46 <bureado_UIO> marga: And why exactly we would luse points on #1 for a 10 EUR increase?
19:22:00 <bureado_UIO> I'm sorry, we're still below Bosnia and Munich then. I don't think this needs a compromise from us.
19:22:05 <aba_MUC> marga: 49 includes full dayfood.
19:22:07 <Clint> you wouldn't necessarily lose enough points to change your score
19:22:16 <bureado_UIO> It's a second option, which remans cheaper, as the whole travel logistics and country also are cheaper.
19:22:26 <Hydroxide> bureado_UIO: munich is 0.5 for accommodation
19:22:28 <marga> bureado_UIO: cause you'd tie with bosnia there, and thus their govt sponsorship weights more, or well, MIGHT weight more when we revisit
19:22:31 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> same for us, as I mentioned you can get it for literally 5 euros, but low quality, incredibly low quality while you can see what you get for that money
19:22:34 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> 30 euros in Bosnia
19:22:45 <marga> aba_MUC: yes, right.
19:22:52 <bureado_UIO> Losing 0.5 to gain 0.5 only wastes our time.
19:22:55 <bureado_UIO> Let's move on.
19:22:59 <marga> ok.
19:23:02 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> thank you
19:23:03 <Hydroxide> #topic priority list evaluation: 7. presentation facilities
19:23:13 <Hydroxide> on this one I think everyone is 1/1/1
19:23:16 <marga> yes
19:23:21 <Hydroxide> anyone disagree?
19:23:22 <azeem_MUC> again, I don't even know what this means
19:23:28 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> we're cool
19:23:30 <aba_MUC> but ours are perfect anyways :)
19:23:35 <azeem_MUC> "does the country have projectors?"
19:23:36 <Hydroxide> azeem_MUC: things like "spaces to have talks held in"
19:23:41 <azeem_MUC> ah
19:23:42 <moray> azeem_MUC: "are there adequate/good spaces for talks etc.?"
19:23:46 <Hydroxide> azeem_MUC: it's about the venue more than the country
19:23:58 <aba_MUC> enough spaces, more than we need. good quality. etc etc.
19:23:59 <azeem_MUC> ok, I shuddup
19:24:00 <moray> e..g with hindsight the lower talk room in Spain and BOF room weren't great
19:24:20 <moray> but I guess bids are unlikely to admit that kind of issue just now :)
19:24:22 <aba_MUC> (and we have too many bof rooms so we discussed which ones we wouldn't use)
19:25:53 <Hydroxide> #topic priority list evaluation: 8. travel logistics
19:26:07 <bureado_UIO> I think it's pretty much 1/1/.5 here
19:26:08 <azeem_MUC> ok, what does this mean?
19:26:09 <aba_MUC> .oO(0/1/.5 ?)
19:26:24 <EnisDonKing_BiH> lets discuss it
19:26:27 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> you have it all figured out, but Bosnia is seems always the lowest .5 fascinating
19:26:44 <EnisDonKing_BiH> why would it be the most expensive option to get to bosnia?
19:26:50 <marga> Please don't take stuff personally.
19:27:10 <Hydroxide> I was going to say 1/.5/0 here actually :) I took a look at getting to banja luka recently, and it's 100% the hardest of the three for me to get to
19:27:12 <aba_MUC> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: as you can see I didn't put Bosnia to the lowest option here.
19:27:16 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> since we knew this would be our weakness, that's why besides food and accomodation we were planning to have at least 25% payed by sponsors (govt) all depending on their ranking in Debian
19:27:17 <moray> ok, this point, as discussed on -talk, is not meant to be mainly about price
19:27:20 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> it oculd even be payed to full
19:27:22 <marga> Bosnia has several issues regarding Visas.  Not only more people have to get it, but also there are countries without embassies which makes it more of an issue.
19:27:23 <Hydroxide> and munich is probably the easiest overall
19:27:41 <moray> this point is meant to focus on ease of travel -- flight availability, visas, etc.
19:27:54 <aba_MUC> Hydroxide: I think Bosnia is easier than Quito. At least it looks like to me.
19:27:55 <bureado_UIO> Quito's planning on invest all savings (given that's the cheaper DC bid) on travel sponsorship for people in Europe, Asia and Oceania.
19:27:56 <moray> Munich probably wins on that
19:28:04 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: from europe, yes )
19:28:09 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> marga, as I said, we would get those people visa, I'll personally make sure of that, send letters of recomandation from PM is not a small thing, so really countries without visa or anything we'd help those contries. I know this since south america is this continent with these problems
19:28:14 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: from anywhere outside europe, no
19:28:15 <moray> even internationally, I guess Munich is best connected
19:28:19 <aba_MUC> moray: I think we only discuss on Quito and Banja Luka now
19:28:22 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> but we have full govt support both financial and "moral" so this shouldn't be a problem really
19:28:31 <bureado_UIO> We're aiming to have the most multicultural DebConf in the recent years. Just in line with Ecuador's renowned fame of welcoming visitors.
19:28:36 <azeem_MUC> http://people.debian.org/~mbanck/muc-direktfluege-short-distance.png <- direct flight to Munich from Europe
19:28:39 <aba_MUC> I think that gvmnt support gives bonus here.
19:28:46 <azeem_MUC> http://people.debian.org/~mbanck/muc-direktfluege-long-distance.png <- direct flights to Munich from the rest of the world
19:28:47 <EnisDonKing_BiH> On this page you can find detailed information on visa process, i.e. if your are a resident of country that requires visa: http://www.mfa.gov.ba/HTML/Ambasade/Preporuke_eng/Vize_eng.html
19:28:47 <EnisDonKing_BiH> except for citizens of EU, I do not think that getting to Germany is ANY easier for people out Schengen.
19:28:47 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> you can even get visa on border 90 free of charge in some cases
19:29:04 <marga> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: I understand the work that you'd do, and I value that, but that doesn't stop this from being a weak point, and it's not your fault.
19:29:18 <Clint> EnisDonKing_BiH: if you're recommending that people fly into austria, serbia, or croatia, does that complicate visa matters?
19:29:24 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> marga, I know, but we have made some solutions to make it at least bit stronger
19:29:30 <Hydroxide> Clint: very good point!
19:29:33 <EnisDonKing_BiH> marga, we understand your point as well, but people outside Schengen has as much problems getting visa as anyone else
19:29:38 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Clint, no since once you get the Bosnian visa you automatically get transit visa!
19:29:39 <bureado_UIO> Then again, in my experience in at least three different governments with government sponsorship, travel sponsorship is the toughest one of alls. I even had pepole rejected from the DC7 sponsorship lists because they weren't in good terms with the gov't. In FMCL 4 and FMCL 5, I had people screened by the police and denied sponsorship.
19:29:40 <EnisDonKing_BiH> for Germany in this case
19:29:51 <moray> please remember that a lower score on a point doesn't mean the bid is bad
19:30:00 <Hydroxide> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: anyway, quito basically doesn't need visas from anyone for tourism
19:30:03 <Clint> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: is that for 3 days?
19:30:15 <moray> if the bid was really bad people would be asking to rule the bid out because of problems, not discussing its fine detail :)
19:30:18 <bureado_UIO> So, besides that I actually think relying on government support is a matter alone to think twice about holding a DC there, having it as an advantage in travel sponsorship terms is naive.
19:30:29 <Hydroxide> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: and is easier for people from the americas to get to, whereas I've even heard some europeans (==UK) talk about difficulties in getting to banja luka
19:30:43 <marga> EnisDonKing_BiH: not true.  Many non-Schengen countries don't need Visa for either Ecuador or Germany but they need it for Bosnia. That's my case.
19:30:44 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> usa, schengen countries, australia, canada don't need visa at all
19:30:47 <Hydroxide> so I still thin 0.5/1/0 makes sense
19:30:48 <aba_MUC> (at this point, I'd like to give 0.5/1/0.75, but well ...)
19:31:08 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> argentina, brasil, venezuela don't need visa up to 90 days as well
19:31:11 <EnisDonKing_BiH> marga I beg to differ. Think about SEE region.
19:31:14 <moray> Hydroxide: I guess Banja Luka would be as 'difficult' as several previous venues, yes
19:31:15 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> I personally checked this
19:31:33 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> no 0 no way
19:31:34 <Hydroxide> moray: yes, which should rightly be viewed as a downside even if they have many other good things about their bid :)
19:31:35 <moray> *cheap* for travel, but not so convenient as Munich even starting from Europe
19:31:46 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> you can get it directly from govt. itself, really really different case, 0 is just ridicule
19:31:53 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> at least 0.5 really
19:31:58 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> for this case we made it possible
19:32:00 <Hydroxide> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: don't take it personally - lots of winning bids get 0 somewhere
19:32:05 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> with dc7 this was a completely different story
19:32:05 <aba_MUC> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: I really think you did a good job.
19:32:09 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: and lots of losing bids get 1
19:32:22 <aba_MUC> Hydroxide: my goal is to have the best possible debconf.
19:32:22 <Hydroxide> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: ^^
19:32:29 <aba_MUC> if we manage that, I think that as winning.
19:32:29 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Hydroxide, k
19:32:29 <EnisDonKing_BiH> it is not about points, it is just about getting real with the issues we are facing
19:32:32 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: that was meant for AbsintheSyringe_BiH
19:32:35 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> EnisDonKing_BiH, excatly
19:32:36 <EnisDonKing_BiH> especially for people outside EU and USA
19:32:37 <Clint> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: just as an example, how would i get from nyc to banja luka?
19:32:45 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> it's just not true
19:32:50 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> give us 0, but it's not true
19:32:53 <aba_MUC> Clint: fly to munich, fly to bosnia
19:32:53 <azeem_MUC> Clint: via Zurich, e.g.
19:33:01 <EnisDonKing_BiH> someone might be offended, but we are thinking about people who are living outside EU and Germany
19:33:09 <EnisDonKing_BiH> I mean USA*
19:33:10 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> azeem_MUC, thank you
19:33:19 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: no. fly to munich, fly to sarajevo, train to banja luka
19:33:27 <azeem_MUC> though Zurich is the only western direct connection to banja luka airport
19:33:28 <aba_MUC> (Munich, Zurich, Vienna mostly I think)
19:33:33 <azeem_MUC> western europ*
19:33:54 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> since
19:33:58 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: and zurich->banja luka is only two days per week, and banja luka ->zurich only one day per week
19:33:59 <aba_MUC> and don't put too much hope on the flight from Zurich - we'll max the flight out of course anyways)
19:34:01 <Hydroxide> inconvenient days, too
19:34:10 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> a lot of countries go to Croatia every year to seaside and they do it thru bosnia? problems
19:34:11 <Hydroxide> i.e. mostly not weekends
19:34:11 <EnisDonKing_BiH> aba_MUC you are correct, Vienna, Koln/Bonn, Frankfurt, Munich, Zurich and London are main "hubs" for whole region
19:34:12 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> don't think so
19:34:21 <aba_MUC> Hydroxide: I assume the last 3 hours are bus / train anyways.
19:34:23 <moray> I assume most people would fly to e.g. Croatia, which *does* have lots of cheap flights
19:34:30 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Zagreb has direct flights from US same with Belgrade!
19:34:35 <Hydroxide> moray: but probably has different visa rules than bosnia
19:34:38 <moray> which works fine -- but is less convenient than direct flights
19:34:41 <EnisDonKing_BiH> moray that is one of our proposals
19:34:48 <Hydroxide> moray: and probably wouldn't benefit from bosnian government support
19:34:55 <azeem_MUC> moray: but you can't fly on the same ticket
19:35:02 <azeem_MUC> assuming you come in from the Americas
19:35:02 <aba_MUC> Hydroxide: transit visas are often way easier.
19:35:07 <moray> azeem_MUC: same ticket as what?  sorry?
19:35:12 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: ok. it's still different.
19:35:20 <moray> azeem_MUC: I'm saying "fly to Croatia, take a train/bus"
19:35:23 <aba_MUC> Hydroxide: agreed.
19:35:32 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> + if you're going to Banja Luka via Zagreb from Latin America there's no way you'll even need visa
19:35:39 <aba_MUC> (and please note I'm not fighting for Munich currently, but try to get an realistic view)
19:35:40 <azeem_MUC> moray: your budget flight from Europe -> Croatia will have no back-connection to the Americas, typically
19:35:45 <azeem_MUC> so you need two tickets
19:35:48 <Hydroxide> so I still view it as 0.5/1/0 - can other people *not from a bid country* give their thoughts now?
19:36:02 <moray> azeem_MUC: oh, I didn't mean budget airline flights for US people
19:36:08 <aba_MUC> also, as discussed, that two times America in a row is a minus point for quito
19:36:10 <azeem_MUC> ok, just saying
19:36:14 <Hydroxide> we have only 24 minnutes before the target end time
19:36:51 <Clint> i would definitely think that munich is easier than quito is easier than banja luka
19:37:12 <moray> aba_MUC is raising the point that it was suggested travel logistic 'fairness' to Europeans would suggest a European DebConf after the US border hell this year
19:37:15 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Clint, thank you
19:37:24 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> how could Quito be easier to reach then Europe and Banja Luka, but whatever
19:37:29 <EnisDonKing_BiH> Id hope that logistics would be considered as well
19:37:46 <EnisDonKing_BiH> i.e. how much does visitor pay
19:37:57 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> and that was just FYI, not even thinking about points
19:37:59 <Hydroxide> moray: most of the european "border hell" going to the US is actually much worse for latin american attendees, which would argue in favor of quito
19:38:15 <Hydroxide> moray: since they generally need to travel to get their visas
19:38:22 <bureado_UIO> Actually
19:38:31 <bureado_UIO> At least .ve need to produce money certificates
19:38:37 <bureado_UIO> to even enter Schengen area.
19:38:46 <bureado_UIO> Of course it depends on which country you're entering and the mood of the people there.
19:38:55 <Hydroxide> moray: however I dont' think that's a significant enough factor in the dc11 decision to change my rankings
19:39:05 <moray> Schengen visa (Munich) is harder than the Bosnian one I guess
19:39:15 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> of course it is
19:39:18 <EnisDonKing_BiH> that's the fact
19:39:18 <moray> Schengen policies are somewhat like the US ones, keep foreigners out
19:39:23 <Clint> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: you're right, i was thinking there were direct flights to quito
19:39:25 <bureado_UIO> Probably, yes. And there's the payment issue which needs to be sorted out.
19:39:26 <aba_MUC> (and please allow me an general remark - any bid will be worse at some point than another bid)
19:39:33 <bureado_UIO> Clint: From where?
19:39:36 <Clint> bureado_UIO: new york
19:39:49 <moray> Clint: and there aren't?
19:39:52 <bureado_UIO> Clint: Sure. You have Aerogal. About 400 USD off-peak, 5 hours.
19:39:59 <Hydroxide> moray: from the US, yes. from NYC, no.
19:40:11 <bureado_UIO> Clint: Though most people are fancy and travel Delta, Continental or American. About the same price though.
19:40:12 <Hydroxide> oh, I guess there is accoding to bureado_UIO
19:40:14 <Hydroxide> ok
19:40:17 <Hydroxide> let's move on
19:40:30 <Hydroxide> #topic priority list evaluation: 9. accessibility
19:40:45 <aba_MUC> so no points for #8?
19:40:46 <azeem_MUC> I would like to point out that the priority list is also missing a point "Has secured local sponsorship money"
19:41:00 <bureado_UIO> For Quito, just this reference: http://www.ecuadorforall.com/
19:41:05 <Hydroxide> (#8 was still 0.5/1/0)
19:41:27 * aba_MUC doesn't agree, but has nothing to say here
19:41:28 <Hydroxide> (unless people NOT from a bid country object)
19:41:33 <EnisDonKing_BiH> without consensus
19:41:58 <bureado_UIO> And this USAID reference on accesibility in Quito, if any doubts left: http://bit.ly/c6Muin
19:42:20 <aba_MUC> Hydroxide: you can move on, you don't need consensus from me on that
19:42:34 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> 0?
19:42:35 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> http://www.banjaluka.rs.ba/front/category/129/?left_mi=321
19:42:40 <aba_MUC> (but I really think that "switching contients" is very important)
19:42:45 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> are you even serious
19:43:03 <aba_MUC> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: please don#t get worked up on that point. I disagree as well, but ...
19:43:24 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> aba_MUC, I know but ...
19:43:24 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> meh
19:43:34 <bureado_UIO> So what about point 9?
19:43:36 <Hydroxide> ok, anyone not happy with 1/1/1 for accessilbity?
19:43:42 <Hydroxide> s/spelling/
19:43:51 <bureado_UIO> Seems fair to me. It's 10 years into the 21st. century now.
19:44:06 * aba_MUC can't judge
19:44:17 <azeem_MUC> all of Munich's public transport is fully accesible
19:44:23 <azeem_MUC> as opposed to e.g. Madrid
19:44:30 <moray> it would be nice to have detailed photos etc., but that's hard 2 years ahead of time
19:44:33 <azeem_MUC> but then, the other bids don't have subways I think
19:44:54 <aba_MUC> moray: we have some photos on the wiki
19:45:49 <EnisDonKing_BiH> germany doesnt have drinking water at homes, yet we are not talking about that. we have already provided accesibility details on our wiki, so I'll just repeat here that public transport and moving trough venue is taken care of, and that we are working on providing shuttle transport
19:45:54 <EnisDonKing_BiH> as mentioned few times already
19:46:20 <azeem_MUC> EnisDonKing_BiH: what?
19:46:21 <aba_MUC> EnisDonKing_BiH: eh?
19:46:22 <Clint> sounds like no objections to 1/1/1
19:46:26 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> I agree
19:46:35 <marga> Ok.
19:46:36 <bureado_UIO> ok
19:46:39 <Hydroxide> ok
19:46:42 <moray> let's leave German tapwater aside as irrelevant until after the meeting!
19:47:03 * aba_MUC is just drinking tapwater
19:47:16 <aba_MUC> and the quality of Munichs tapwater is *way* better than most bottled watter.
19:47:17 <azeem_MUC> contrary to popular belief, there are no beer taps in Munich homes
19:47:24 <aba_MUC> one of the best in the world actually.
19:47:26 <azeem_MUC> it's water
19:47:30 <Hydroxide> ok
19:47:33 <azeem_MUC> aba_MUC: quite hard, though
19:47:45 <aba_MUC> (should I try to find out the certificate for water?)
19:47:52 <moray> there was a move to revisit point one, as not everyone realised it included *travel* costs
19:48:00 <Hydroxide> as requested, we can now revisit 1a. local costs followed by 1b. travel costs
19:48:09 <aba_MUC> sounds fair.
19:48:14 <Clint> could someone publish the scores prior to revision?
19:48:18 <Hydroxide> yes
19:48:24 <moray> let's do this point first?
19:48:31 <Hydroxide> or no... :)
19:48:32 <marga> Point 1 had been 1/0.5/1
19:48:35 <moray> I mean, scores for point 1 is good
19:48:39 <Hydroxide> right
19:48:40 <Hydroxide> ok
19:48:49 <moray> (just not the big table until we're done)
19:49:04 <Hydroxide> #topic priority list reevaluation: 1a. affordability - local costs
19:49:44 <marga> Here I think it's 1/0/0.5 (due to Munich being much more expensive)
19:50:05 <aba_MUC> marga: rather 1/0.5/1 I think
19:50:06 <bureado_UIO> And that's the 0.5 for gov't money, I guess? I'm ok with it though.
19:50:07 <moray> marga: well, that's assuming the Bosnian money is a lie?
19:50:18 <moray> marga: which doesn't seem fair
19:50:19 <aba_MUC> (or even 0.5/0/1)
19:50:36 <EnisDonKing_BiH> I believe local costs in Bosnia are on par with Quito, regardless of support
19:50:49 <bureado_UIO> Right, let's give examples.
19:50:50 <marga> moray: well, no, not a lie, but _personally_ I won't rely on it.
19:50:50 <EnisDonKing_BiH> support makes them incredibly lower
19:50:51 <Hydroxide> 1/.5/1 here makes sense, yes
19:50:52 <bureado_UIO> Minimum taxi fare?
19:50:59 <bureado_UIO> Bus ticket?
19:51:07 <bureado_UIO> Full meal at a restaurant?
19:51:13 <EnisDonKing_BiH> sure thing, go ahead
19:51:28 <Hydroxide> anyone object to 1/.5/1 ?
19:51:34 <moray> seems fair to me
19:51:37 <bureado_UIO> In EUR, that's 0.73, 0.18 and 3.5 for Quito.
19:51:38 <Clint> i want to hear these examples
19:51:41 <Hydroxide> ok
19:51:44 <aba_MUC> so we need to add the gvmnt money somewhere else
19:52:13 <bureado_UIO> By restaurant I mean fancy table, waiters and all the boring stuff for a three course meal.
19:52:25 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: I think we're factoring that in by making MUC .5 instead of 0 and BIH 1 instead of .5
19:52:40 <bureado_UIO> Well, I rest my case with the 20 USD/bed/night accommodation, which isn't discussed here, but gives an impression of the economy standards.
19:52:41 <aba_MUC> Hydroxide: I think BIH would be 1 w/o gvmnt money already.
19:52:42 <marga> Maybe we should add a 1c) for promised sponsoring?
19:52:50 <aba_MUC> marga: sounds fair.
19:53:01 <bureado_UIO> marga: Sounds fair, since we also have secured sponsoring.
19:53:06 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> aba_MUC, again thank you
19:53:08 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> 100% true
19:53:09 <marga> aba_MUC: I think it's 1/0/0.5 if we factored out the sponsoring.
19:53:17 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> marga, no
19:53:18 <aba_MUC> marga: I think it's 1/0.5/1 w/o
19:53:19 <Hydroxide> heh, sounds like we just want to maximize arguments :)
19:53:27 <aba_MUC> but as I'm local team I have nothing to say
19:53:39 <marga> Hydroxide: sorry, maybe it's a bad idea.
19:53:42 <marga> Hydroxide: your call.
19:53:54 <aba_MUC> (even though I'm just making it less likely to get DC to munich, but as said the best place should be)
19:53:58 * Hydroxide shouldn't be making all of these calls...
19:54:05 <moray> marga: I think they're still +1 without, if MUC are +0.5
19:54:20 <Hydroxide> moray: I meant muc was 0 without, but ... heh
19:54:38 <Hydroxide> moray: you decide this one so that I'm not deciding all of the items :)
19:54:39 <Clint> so 0.73€, 0.18€ and 3.5€ for Quito
19:54:42 <Clint> did anyone want to do the other two?
19:54:51 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> it really seems like many have not even gone through our whole wiki :/
19:55:04 <moray> Hydroxide: for me as a European, Quito will be expensive just to get to
19:55:14 <marga> moray: that's 1b)
19:55:15 <Hydroxide> moray: but this is local costs, not travel costs
19:55:28 <bureado_UIO> moray: And not taking into account that we'd pay for your fare.
19:55:49 <marga> moray: the whole point was splitting local costs with travel costs.  I don't see how having a clear cut 19€ vs 49€ vs 30 € gives anything else than 1/0/0.5
19:55:52 <bureado_UIO> moray: Which is not in discussion here, too, but it's good to know.
19:56:00 <moray> ok, I don't know the costs in Quito and Banja Luka well enough to compare them personally beyond knowing both to be much cheaper than Munich
19:56:14 <aba_MUC> we're speaking about local costs only. And of course Munich is worst there.
19:56:24 <bureado_UIO> I think we already agreed on having a separate 'secured sponsoring' thingy, so these criteria for 1a remains the same than it was earlier...
19:56:30 <EnisDonKing_BiH> bus and taxi transport in banja luka are on par with quito, food is even cheaper
19:56:34 <EnisDonKing_BiH> details on wiki
19:56:39 <EnisDonKing_BiH> no sponsorship included
19:56:45 <aba_MUC> can we move on with 1/0.5/1, and put "secured sponsorship" extra?
19:56:53 * aba_MUC wants to finish some time at least
19:56:55 <Hydroxide> ok, we'll do that
19:57:05 <moray> right
19:57:10 <Hydroxide> #topic priority list reevaluation: 1b. affordability - travel costs
19:57:14 <bureado_UIO> how come we had 1/0.5/1 ?
19:57:28 <bureado_UIO> it was 1/0/0.5, factoring out sponsorship
19:57:36 <bureado_UIO> Please explain, so we can move on.
19:57:49 <Hydroxide> ok... yes, nobody found local costs aside from sponsorship anything but hi
19:57:52 <Hydroxide> *high
19:57:56 <Hydroxide> for munich, aside from sponsorship
19:58:13 <Hydroxide> 1/.5/1 including sponsorship and move on
19:58:19 <aba_MUC> Hydroxide: I doubt so.
19:58:31 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: you mentioned it several times in your weaknesses
19:58:33 <bureado_UIO> ok so that's for 1a
19:58:38 <bureado_UIO> what's for 1b now
19:58:43 <Hydroxide> right
19:58:44 <bureado_UIO> munich was 1
19:58:52 <aba_MUC> and I think we should discuss about the sponsorship in bosnia. Because that state is important.
19:59:15 <aba_MUC> I think travel costs are (depending if you put "alternate" in) with 0/1/.5 or .5/1/.5
19:59:29 <Hydroxide> I suggest .5/1/.5 yes
19:59:32 <bureado_UIO> yes
19:59:58 <aba_MUC> that's ok, but we should weight in the different contintents, and also the bosnian money.
20:00:12 <moray> Hydroxide: I'm not sure the travel *costs* are higher for Bosnia than Germany?
20:00:20 <Hydroxide> moray: hm, maybe
20:00:25 <moray> much less convenient, but that was a different point
20:00:26 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> moray, they are not!
20:00:28 <Hydroxide> moray: that's actually a good point - I was confusing logistics with cost
20:00:32 <aba_MUC> moray: it's more complex to get to Bosnia, and we could max out connections.
20:00:37 <aba_MUC> I even assume we will.
20:00:45 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: but that was logistics, not cost
20:00:53 <aba_MUC> Hydroxide: that has effect on costs.
20:00:58 <moray> aba_MUC: there are many options though
20:01:00 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: not significantly, in my opinion
20:01:06 <aba_MUC> and of course, Munich can be reached by cheap train connections from parts of europe, while Bosnia is way harder.
20:01:07 <bureado_UIO> I think it's been done. Check out bubulle's list of active devels. We have a lot of them in the USA and Brazil, not taking into account Argentina, Colombia, Venezuela and Chile. And we're not even taking here into account people that aren't DDs, such as the one's participating in the MiniDebConf Panama.
20:01:10 <moray> aba_MUC: if we all flew direct to Banja Luka then yes, but we won't
20:01:30 <aba_MUC> Hydroxide: I paid unnecessary much in Spain because of maxed out connections.
20:01:53 <bureado_UIO> So I think it's just fair to say that for MUC people from Europe are really cheap, from America are a tad more expensive as Quito and from Asia/Oceania it's about the same.
20:01:54 <aba_MUC> of course, I might have been the only one then it doesn't matter.
20:02:06 <marga> I insist that travel costs are 1/1/1, since Quito benefits America and Munich/Bosnia benefit Europe, and Debian is global.  "Alternate" is not really a rule nor is Quito really the same continent as NYC.
20:02:12 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: also, as for the "continents" thing, from the perspective of people in asia, oceania, north america, and south america, all of the options are a different continent from the US
20:02:22 <bureado_UIO> And people's concentration balance. But then again, Banja Luka's the most complicate option.
20:02:31 <Hydroxide> marga: I would be ok with 1/1/1 too
20:02:39 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> bureado_UIO, thank you again for making us too complicated again
20:02:44 <aba_MUC> Hydroxide: I really think it sucks for DDs in europe.
20:02:48 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> since with every stance we're the most complicated ones
20:02:59 <Clint> for whom is bosnia cheapest?
20:03:02 <moray> right, it does suck for Europeans, but that's not the cost point?
20:03:03 <aba_MUC> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: you're not. Even if Quito belives so.
20:03:03 <bureado_UIO> For bosnians
20:03:10 <aba_MUC> Clint: for greeks perhaps?
20:03:20 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> aba_MUC, their belief is being opted in this meeting so far
20:03:26 <azeem_MUC> marga: in Argentina, what was the quotient of attendents from Americas vs. Europe, do you know?
20:03:27 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Clint, elaborate your question
20:03:28 <moray> Clint: supposedly for Australians
20:03:35 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Clint, tourists? who?
20:03:38 <EnisDonKing_BiH> Bosnia is chepest for whole Balcan, region of EE and SEE
20:03:41 <bureado_UIO> Hydroxide: We're ok with this too.
20:03:48 <aba_MUC> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: yes, that is what worries me as well.
20:03:59 <EnisDonKing_BiH> just like people from Poland or the Netherlands have no problems getting to Germany
20:04:02 <marga> azeem_MUC: I don't have it at hand, but we did have a lot of people from Brazil, Venezuela, Mexico...
20:04:03 <Clint> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: travel costs, i meant
20:04:22 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Clint, Europe by far
20:04:41 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Clint, you can get yo Bosnia by car from most places in Europe
20:04:49 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> and I mean all of Europe by this
20:04:55 <marga> EnisDonKing_BiH: what's EE and SEE ?
20:05:13 <Clint> eastern europe, southeastern europe
20:05:14 <azeem_MUC> east europe/south-east surope
20:05:15 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> bureado_UIO, is cheap in all stances for Latin America, rest of the world no
20:05:17 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> especially Europe
20:05:35 <EnisDonKing_BiH> Eastern Europe and South-East Europe (Adriatic)
20:05:39 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> even NYC is pretty far away for Europe, but Equador ... way to ofar
20:05:44 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> not to mentioned complicated
20:05:51 <moray> we're getting off the point I fear
20:06:00 <Hydroxide> my original thing was 0.5/1/0.5 until moray pointed out I was confusing logistics with cost in the case of bosnia, so I would be ok with 0.5/1/1 or 1/1/1
20:06:09 <Hydroxide> please someone else not from a bid country decide :)
20:06:10 <Clint> it would be better to have saner metrics, perhaps
20:06:15 <aba_MUC> 0.5/1/1 is ok for me
20:06:24 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> I'm sick of hearing that Bosnia is more expensive then equador and bureado_UIO constantly making us look bad with every stance
20:06:25 <Hydroxide> Clint: yes
20:06:39 <bureado_UIO> As we always say in all bid selection meetings, we need to improve how we decide things here. But that's how it is now.
20:06:42 * Hydroxide encourages everyone from all bid teams to calm down :)
20:06:55 <Clint> i'll agree that MUC is a 1, but nothing else
20:06:56 * aba_MUC is not commenting on that now
20:07:15 <Hydroxide> Clint: what do you propose?
20:07:23 <bureado_UIO> We originally proposes 0.5/1/0.5
20:07:29 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> bubulle, 0.5 for you ok
20:07:30 <bureado_UIO> We're ok with that, MUC is a 1 here.
20:07:32 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> not for Bosnia as well
20:07:40 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> you're ok whenever bosnia is 0.5 or 0
20:08:00 <Hydroxide> Clint: no suggestion?
20:08:03 <Clint> Hydroxide: either 0.5/1/0.5 or 0.5/1/0
20:08:26 <Hydroxide> Clint: because of cost to bosnia? this isn't about logistics
20:08:33 <Clint> Hydroxide: argh, sorry
20:08:46 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> one minute it's 1/1/1
20:08:48 <moray> I don't see the evidence that travel *costs* for Munich are better than Bosnia
20:08:55 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> second it's 0.5/1/0.5 and then X/X/0
20:09:05 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> splendid
20:09:19 <Hydroxide> Clint: with that correction, then?
20:09:41 <Clint> for costs i guess 0.5/1/0.5, though it seems a bit vague
20:09:50 <Hydroxide> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: it's called a discussion :)
20:09:59 <aba_MUC> Clint: it's vague. But if we try on an 0.x intervall it takes another 20 hours
20:10:06 <EnisDonKing_BiH> sure thing, we're sharing our opinions and arguments here
20:10:31 <Hydroxide> ok, please let's come to a consensus about bosnia as 0.5 or 1 here
20:10:40 <moray> Clint: have you actually checked to see if Bosnia costs more?
20:10:47 <Hydroxide> and then let's move on to the grand total. (remember the 1a numbers included sponsorship in the end)
20:10:56 <Clint> moray: the last time they bid, yes
20:10:56 <Hydroxide> or however we want to combine these
20:11:01 <azeem_MUC> what about 1c, sponsor money?
20:11:07 <moray> Clint: that was to fly to Sarajevo though?
20:11:10 <Clint> moray: it was at least 3x the cost of muc/uio
20:11:13 <Hydroxide> azeem_MUC: see what I just said
20:11:16 <Clint> yeah, probably it was sjj
20:11:28 <azeem_MUC> ah, didn't catch that
20:11:31 <moray> Clint: flying to airports near Banja Luka then doing ground transport should be *much* cheaper than Sarajevo
20:11:42 <Hydroxide> moray: when I checked the numbers a few days ago all paths were still a bit more expensive to bosnia than munich
20:11:50 <moray> Clint: flying to Sarajevo was expensive (then) even within Europe
20:11:56 <EnisDonKing_BiH> that has changed
20:11:59 <Clint> moray: ground transport doesn't always fit within my schedule
20:12:04 <EnisDonKing_BiH> since we have budget companies flying to sarajevo now
20:12:07 <EnisDonKing_BiH> eg german wings
20:12:07 <bureado_UIO> My point of view on Banja Luka is that 1) it can be more expensive for people in the specific Debian-action areas in Europe and 2) when standing among MUC and 2) it's more expensive and difficult to reach for the whole rest of the world where Debian-action happens besides Europe.
20:12:11 <aba_MUC> this is about moeny only.
20:12:21 <marga> Answering a previously posed question, the amount of people from the Americas at DC8 was 155 vs 68 people from other parts of the world.  If we discount all people from .ar, then it was 75 vs 68.
20:12:38 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> bureado_UIO, can you say one thing that's not related to Bosnia looking bad?
20:12:43 <bureado_UIO> So we agreed Quito's .5 just because we have a center of mass in Europe (which is a sad thought, because it means that Debian will grow its status quo, but anyway, we need a criteria for selection)
20:12:46 <Hydroxide> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: please do not do personal attacks here
20:13:03 <aba_MUC> bureado_UIO: that argument doesn't apply to DC12 of course.
20:13:07 <bureado_UIO> I think it's just fair to recognize MUC's better in this respect.
20:13:25 <Clint> moray: zagreb's still >$1k for me
20:13:26 <moray> Clint: right, but that was the logistics point
20:13:27 <aba_MUC> I think it'd be fair to put 0/1/.5, but that'll make lots of people disagree here.
20:13:30 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> Hydroxide, it's not personal attack, from this very beginning of meeting he called me to genitalia waving contest then everything he says has to do something with Bosnia looking bad
20:13:31 <bureado_UIO> aba_MUC: It depends if we're shifting to a different model of alternating places, but that's not the point here I think.
20:13:36 <moray> Clint: (schedule)
20:13:40 <Clint> yes
20:13:45 <moray> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: please stop
20:13:50 <Hydroxide> I thin the consensus from noneuropeans is that MUC is better than BIH in this regard and the consensus for europeans is MUC == BIH
20:14:05 <Hydroxide> so the overall consensus is MUC slightly > BIH in this regard
20:14:10 <bureado_UIO> Hydroxide: Oh, I wasn't aware that MUC == BIH from noneuropeans.
20:14:13 <Clint> moray: but if i can't afford to take the time to not fly "direct", then my cost may be higher
20:14:20 <bureado_UIO> Hydroxide: Then MUC > BIH for peoploe in America, definitely.
20:14:23 <aba_MUC> Hydroxide: for western europeans Munich is often better, but only a bit.
20:14:42 <EnisDonKing_BiH> and when do we take sponsorship in account?
20:14:52 <aba_MUC> EnisDonKing_BiH: 1c I hope.
20:14:55 <Hydroxide> so I"m going to put down 0.5/1/0.5 unless people *not* from a bid team object
20:15:02 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: we already took sponsorship into account in local costs
20:15:05 <azeem_MUC> 21:09 <@Hydroxide> and then let's move on to the grand total. (remember the 1a numbers included sponsorship in the end)
20:15:16 <bureado_UIO> aba_MUC: I'm not sure of that about 1c, because of:
20:15:17 <bureado_UIO> 15:27 <@Hydroxide> 1/.5/1 including sponsorship and move on
20:15:17 <moray> Hydroxide: I still kind of object on that, but maybe I can concede a 0.75...
20:15:26 <aba_MUC> anyways I don't think that banja luka is way worse than spain for europe.
20:15:31 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: ok
20:15:45 <moray> can we write *something* and do the other point though?
20:15:46 <Hydroxide> ok, 0.5/1/0.75
20:15:51 <Hydroxide> moray: what other point?
20:15:52 <aba_MUC> whatever.
20:15:53 <Hydroxide> are we doing a 1c?
20:16:02 <moray> Hydroxide: people wanted some separate "money obtained so far" point
20:16:04 <moray> I think
20:16:10 <aba_MUC> (1c will end up bad for munich, but well, we should do it)
20:16:13 <Hydroxide> moray: but we already factored some of that into 1a
20:16:16 <bureado_UIO> 15:45 <@Hydroxide> ok, 0.5/1/0.75 <- if you care less about America (which I don't mean to say as bad thing) makes sense.
20:16:19 <Hydroxide> if people want a 1c we can do it
20:16:28 <Hydroxide> bureado_UIO: for dc11 it's probably appropriate
20:16:29 <marga> Yeah, if we do 1c, then 1a was unfair and we need to revisit it.
20:16:37 <bureado_UIO> Hydroxide: Ok.
20:16:39 <bureado_UIO> 15:46 <+marga> Yeah, if we do 1c, then 1a was unfair and we need to revisit it.
20:16:48 <bureado_UIO> I thought we went through the sponsorship part already.
20:16:59 <Hydroxide> if we do 1c, then my vote for 1a definitely changes to 1/0/0.5. are people sure they want 1c? :)
20:17:27 <EnisDonKing_BiH> I thought we already discussed the fact
20:17:33 <Hydroxide> ok
20:17:33 <EnisDonKing_BiH> that bosnia is on par with quito
20:17:38 <EnisDonKing_BiH> in terms of pricing
20:17:43 <EnisDonKing_BiH> for about everything
20:17:48 <EnisDonKing_BiH> no sponsorship included
20:17:49 <EnisDonKing_BiH> whatsoever
20:17:52 <moray> Hydroxide: maybe just paste the current numbers for everything now?
20:17:54 <aba_MUC> Hydroxide: well, perhaps you just make upo your mind inside the debconf team. You know my opninion, but I don't need to be part of the consensus.
20:17:57 <moray> Hydroxide: and see what we do from there?
20:18:09 <Hydroxide> ok, here's a decision
20:18:14 <Hydroxide> let's do 1c then revisit 1a then DECIDE
20:18:31 <marga> Ok.
20:18:52 <Hydroxide> #topic priority list reevaluation: 1c. affordability - sponsorship secured
20:19:22 <aba_MUC> I think every team should say something about their state, then we can make up a number?
20:19:31 <Hydroxide> yes
20:19:37 <EnisDonKing_BiH> I thought we already covered that part in introduction
20:19:39 <marga> So, please, each team make a brief list of what's already secured, WITHOUT attacking the others.
20:19:40 <EnisDonKing_BiH> as well as on wiki
20:19:58 <EnisDonKing_BiH> but we can do it again, no probs on our side
20:20:05 <bureado_UIO> same order?
20:20:10 <aba_MUC> whatever.
20:20:39 <bureado_UIO> chairs?
20:20:46 <Hydroxide> same order is fine
20:20:46 <Hydroxide> go
20:20:47 <bureado_UIO> 1. Puntonet confirmed all connectivity-related sponsorships. They're following the meeting.
20:21:00 <bureado_UIO> 2. EPN confirmed all venue-related sponsorships.
20:21:34 <bureado_UIO> 3. President's Office and Mayor's Office will wait for decision and they will become sponsors then. Except for the Mayor's office which has to wait until July. We've not taken this into budget.
20:21:48 <azeem_MUC> what can we expect here roughly?
20:21:58 <bureado_UIO> Money to pay hostels.
20:22:17 <bureado_UIO> 4. Asociacion de Software Libre del Ecuador and ONUVA are putting money for connectivity, various equipments and merchandising.
20:23:05 <aba_MUC> (and please say when you're done)
20:23:08 <bureado_UIO> That's our down-to-earth list of sponsorships inside Ecuador at the moment, which covers a great deal of the budget and it's detailed on the draft. Leaves us with oxygen for travel sponsorship and other costs.
20:23:13 <bureado_UIO> Done.
20:23:24 <azeem_MUC> ok.
20:23:44 <azeem_MUC> 1. The university agreed to host venue and network for free
20:24:08 <azeem_MUC> 2. Debian-day will be sponsored by the city council (though we have not signed anything here)
20:24:26 <azeem_MUC> 3. We are confident we will find various local sponsors, but have not contacted anybody yet
20:24:39 <azeem_MUC> that's it I think.
20:24:44 <EnisDonKing_BiH> thanks azeem_MUC
20:24:52 <EnisDonKing_BiH> we have secured:
20:24:53 <EnisDonKing_BiH> 1. full financial support from the goverment for whole event (money will be splitted according to budget proposal and co-ordination with Debian team, i.e. travel logistics, accommondation, and other costs)
20:24:56 <EnisDonKing_BiH> 2. free venue (multiple presentation facilities)
20:25:02 <EnisDonKing_BiH> 3. free network coverage (detailed on wiki)
20:25:07 <EnisDonKing_BiH> 4. special deals with hotels to lower the costs of accomondation
20:25:12 <EnisDonKing_BiH> 5. sponsorship with local IT companies pendering decision, as well as other local companies depending on needs of the visitors
20:25:18 <EnisDonKing_BiH> 6. City of Banja Luka is willing to sponsor some of the "fun activities" in the city
20:25:42 <Hydroxide> ok
20:25:43 <aba_MUC> one question: isn't 4. part of 1. already (so it will reduce cost for the gvmnt but not any change for us)?
20:25:46 <EnisDonKing_BiH> that would be it in general
20:25:46 <EnisDonKing_BiH> not to go over smaller deals
20:26:05 <EnisDonKing_BiH> in a sense
20:26:10 <Hydroxide> ok
20:26:11 <EnisDonKing_BiH> it is connected
20:26:17 <EnisDonKing_BiH> but we are negotiating with hotels
20:26:18 <aba_MUC> ok, thanks
20:26:19 <Hydroxide> so let's speed things up
20:26:30 <Hydroxide> are people ok with 0.5/0.5/1 here?
20:26:33 <bureado_UIO> I find it's clearly a .5/.5/1 scenario. And by no means am I questioning the validity of Bosnia's gov't offer, full trust over here, even if it involvers risks.
20:26:36 <bureado_UIO> Yes.
20:26:37 <marga> Hydroxide: I agree.
20:26:40 <Hydroxide> ok
20:27:04 <aba_MUC> i'd go for 0/0/1, but well
20:27:09 <Hydroxide> #topic priority list rereevaluation: 1a. affordability - local team costs ignoring sponsorship secured
20:27:19 <moray> aba_MUC: we're not just adding up the scores, so it doesn't matter
20:27:28 <bureado_UIO> 1/0/.5 here, if we factor out things we ve just decided
20:27:41 <marga> Ok, I have to repeat myself here, but I think that the main factor here is the quoted costs, €19/€45/€30
20:27:42 <aba_MUC> bureado_UIO: can you please try to not always make bosnia worse? thanks.
20:27:45 <EnisDonKing_BiH> could we please post more arguments?
20:27:49 <EnisDonKing_BiH> Id like to get a few minutes
20:28:13 <marga> Even if Bosnia is about the same as Ecuador as regarding to food and the like, the cost per person per day weights a lot.
20:28:20 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: he didn't do that in 1c
20:28:30 <Clint> EnisDonKing_BiH: could you give numbers for the three examples bureado_UIO suggested?
20:28:31 <EnisDonKing_BiH> marga please, Im trying to explain the point here
20:28:34 <aba_MUC> Hydroxide: he handn't a chance there.
20:28:41 <moray> marga: well, the Bosnians made it clear they could find cheaper options if it was needed I thought?  while Quito said they could find 'superior' ones if wanted...
20:28:54 <EnisDonKing_BiH> first of all, Id like to add that we didnt offer hostel options
20:28:57 <aba_MUC> it might be that this is only my feeling, but Bosnia is coming out worsre than what I consider fair.
20:28:58 <EnisDonKing_BiH> we are offering hotel
20:29:03 <EnisDonKing_BiH> by no means you can compare
20:29:04 <marga> moray: right, but Quito's accommodation option made them lose points.
20:29:09 <EnisDonKing_BiH> a hostel to the hotel offering
20:29:12 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: it's not going to be added up
20:29:13 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> premium class hotel/s
20:29:18 <EnisDonKing_BiH> with bathroom, TV, internet...
20:29:23 <EnisDonKing_BiH> breakfast in the restaurant
20:29:24 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> hottub!
20:29:29 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: alternatively, you can always yield to bosnia if you feel they should win
20:29:41 <aba_MUC> Hydroxide: so our scores get added up?
20:29:42 <EnisDonKing_BiH> so, if we would rule out hotels for hostels, we can match quito's price
20:29:43 <moray> marga: but if the Bosnian government money disappeared, and we were paying, I guess the Bosnians wouldn't go for the hotel
20:29:52 <EnisDonKing_BiH> moray, please read above
20:30:05 <Hydroxide> ok, we need to wrap up ASAP
20:30:27 <aba_MUC> moray: agreed. Then the prices are lower for Bosnia.
20:30:38 <Hydroxide> please - 1/0/1 here is what I'd say
20:30:43 <moray> for me I guess it's 1/0/1 yes
20:31:00 <aba_MUC> ok
20:31:05 <Hydroxide> great
20:31:05 <marga> ok
20:31:06 <Hydroxide> decided
20:31:21 <Hydroxide> #topic decision!
20:31:23 <Hydroxide> ok
20:31:24 <moray> do we get the table now?  but everyone remember it's not just a matter of adding up
20:31:27 <Hydroxide> yes
20:31:34 <Hydroxide> http://rogue.kaplowitz.org/~jimmy/dc11.txt
20:31:51 <Hydroxide> I am going to suggest that we do what we did at the end of the long dc10 meeting and de-voice any bid team people
20:31:55 <Hydroxide> is everyone ok with that?
20:31:56 <bureado_UIO> yes
20:32:03 <EnisDonKing_BiH> sure thing
20:32:17 <Hydroxide> aba_MUC: / azeem_MUC :
20:32:22 <Hydroxide> ^^
20:32:23 <moray> assuming no one is ready to concede :)
20:32:26 <Hydroxide> right
20:32:27 <aba_MUC> whatever suits you - i can be just quiet as well
20:32:32 <Ganneff> Hydroxide: you are chair, decide such things and go
20:32:43 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> 7.5 both Munchen and Bosnia :)
20:32:44 <aba_MUC> Ganneff: and don't use god-mode :P
20:32:54 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> or it's 0.75 for bosnia :)
20:33:05 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> what's the final score :D
20:33:12 <moray> AbsintheSyringe_BiH: the earlier points, roughly speaking, count more, you can't just add them up
20:33:14 <Hydroxide> if anyone wants to speak from a non-bid country here, let me know in #-talk
20:33:23 <AbsintheSyringe_BiH> moray, ah ok :)
20:34:10 <moray> Hydroxide: please make a proposal for how we progress
20:34:12 <Hydroxide> please let me know in #-talk if you want to speak here and are not form a bid country - you will get +v
20:34:19 <Hydroxide> moray: heh
20:35:35 <Hydroxide> h01ger: please talk about PROCESS only
20:35:47 <Hydroxide> h01ger: how do you think we should proceed?
20:36:18 <h01ger> post a summary of the ratings so far?
20:36:23 <Hydroxide> http://rogue.kaplowitz.org/~jimmy/dc11.txt
20:36:30 <Hydroxide> marga's numbers were 7.5/9/9.25
20:36:43 <Hydroxide> I could use double-checking
20:36:48 <Hydroxide> but that's without weighting
20:36:50 * h01ger could use a break
20:36:55 <h01ger> and i assume i'm not alone here
20:36:58 * h01ger looks around
20:36:59 <Hydroxide> h01ger: you are not
20:37:09 <Hydroxide> do people want a break or do we just want to finalize this?
20:37:36 <marga> More than a break we need to think how to proceed.
20:37:44 <Hydroxide> how about we go with bosnia because margas numbers had it in the lead and the second-place (munich) thought bosnia deserved more points than it got?
20:37:59 <Hydroxide> that's a proposal
20:38:18 <Hydroxide> please react :)
20:38:44 <h01ger> thats a proposal for a result but not a process
20:38:59 <h01ger> how about ten minutes break first, before discussing how to continbue
20:39:12 <h01ger> i would eg like to look at the numbers and think for 45 seconds at least
20:39:30 <Hydroxide> we'll break until :45
20:39:35 <h01ger> thanks
20:39:41 <Hydroxide> #topic break until :45
20:46:29 <Hydroxide> ok
20:46:42 <Hydroxide> #topic decision, take 2
20:47:18 <Hydroxide> so it looks like quito is thinking of withdrawing for dc11. I'l voice them so they can confirm or deny here
20:47:39 <Hydroxide> bureado_UIO, ailefi_UIO: did I understand you correctly?
20:48:11 <Hydroxide> meanwhile
20:48:24 <bureado_UIO> No
20:48:26 <Hydroxide> ok
20:48:29 <bureado_UIO> We're not withdrawing at the moment
20:48:31 <Hydroxide> in that case
20:48:40 <bureado_UIO> But we're not delaying this anymore in terms of
20:48:56 <bureado_UIO> There's no way for us to improve scores and there seems to be a consensus on that DC11 should happen on Europe
20:48:59 <Hydroxide> ok
20:49:08 * h01ger wonders why BJ got 0.75 for 1c, that seems wrong to me (either 0.5 or 1) and then i really think we should put the prios into consideration and not weight them equal. and mvoe #8 up to #4 (before food).
20:49:16 <bureado_UIO> We'll let BIH and MUC go on and we'll evaluate internally if running up for DC12 is assertive.
20:49:23 <bureado_UIO> Hydroxide: Thanks.
20:49:25 <Hydroxide> ok, thanks
20:49:52 <Hydroxide> ok. I still propose going with bosnia
20:50:01 <Hydroxide> and bosnia wants a decision now
20:50:16 <h01ger> Hydroxide, why to you propose bosnia?
20:50:53 <moray> one thing in their (and Quito's) favour from me is that they're bidding again
20:51:07 <Hydroxide> h01ger: even taking into account priorities, they have overall the best affordability and an acceptable local team and network onnectivity, and the best accommodation
20:51:34 <Hydroxide> h01ger: and those are all important
20:51:48 <Hydroxide> ok
20:51:59 <Hydroxide> and aba_MUC just said we should decide now too
20:52:06 <h01ger> Hydroxide, but again not the most reliable localteam...
20:52:09 <Hydroxide> so postponing has been vetoed by bid teams
20:52:11 <Hydroxide> h01ger: agreed
20:52:21 <h01ger> dc9 we were very lucky with localteam not falling apart on us
20:52:26 <h01ger> dc6 we were not so lucky
20:52:39 <Hydroxide> also agreed. but we will manage and they have shown much drive and determination
20:52:53 <h01ger> AbsintheSyringe_BiH has shown much drive and determination
20:52:58 <moray> I'm not sure that having more core DDs is necessarily more reliable
20:53:07 <Hydroxide> h01ger: others have too, just less vocally
20:53:21 <Hydroxide> ok
20:53:26 <moray> I've been very impressed with the Bosnians work -- while we might still not trust politicians' promises, they've done amazing stuff to get those promises, as well as good general work on the bid
20:53:43 <Hydroxide> moray: so is that another vote for deciding on bosnia now?
20:53:47 <h01ger> Hydroxide, (sorry to say this), but people we mostly dont really know.
20:53:58 <marga> moray: not core DDs, but people who have experienced DebConf in the past and have an idea of what is about.  I fear BiH has too few of them.
20:54:18 <Hydroxide> h01ger: I've met multiple of them. and you didn't know any NYC team people besides me before dc10 was chosen
20:54:29 <Hydroxide> (at the time most NYC DDs were't involved)
20:54:30 <moray> h01ger: from my experience of DC7, some of the people who "we didn't really know" worked *much* harder than some of the people we'd thought would from being involved DebConf-attending DDs
20:55:07 <h01ger> Hydroxide, i knew schultmc, micah and other people...
20:55:18 <Hydroxide> h01ger: micah wasn't involved then
20:55:24 <Clint> i don't count
20:55:25 <Hydroxide> h01ger: clint wasn't involved then. biella wasn't involved then. et.
20:55:34 <Hydroxide> h01ger: (now they are)
20:55:58 <h01ger> well, even from washington dc you help a dc in nyc as you can help from hamburg in munich.
20:56:25 <Hydroxide> h01ger: not really
20:56:30 <h01ger> OH, and WAIT. _I_ dont want to help munich from hamburg. i'm getting comfortable with being a debconf attendee not an organizer ;)
20:56:39 <marga> Ok, I need to go.  I can't vote on which would make a better DebConf, since both seem very well prepared bids.
20:56:56 <Hydroxide> ok, if nobody is going to either propose any alternate suggestion and the bids don't see a point in delaying
20:57:11 <Hydroxide> and nobody not from a bid country is going to object
20:57:14 <moray> Hydroxide: well, let h01ger or marga say that?
20:57:37 <h01ger> moray, say what?
20:57:37 <moray> or is h01ger not meant to be in as he's German?  I lost count
20:57:48 <Hydroxide> he is german, ...
20:57:51 <Hydroxide> but
20:58:06 <Hydroxide> I was just trying to make a decision since nobody else is :)
20:58:17 <moray> it seems to me too like Bosnia are ahead
20:58:28 <Hydroxide> none of the bid teams see a reason to postpone the decision
20:58:29 <h01ger> it seems to me bosnia is more voal
20:58:36 <Hydroxide> h01ger: that is unquestionably true :)
20:58:40 <Hydroxide> ok
20:59:07 <Hydroxide> I'm going to decide bosnia unless someone not from germany/bosnia/ecuador objects in 5
20:59:07 <h01ger> and the global people who prefer bosnia are more vocal too. and what to decide now too.
20:59:11 <Hydroxide> 4
20:59:16 <h01ger> object
20:59:17 <h01ger> and now?
20:59:27 <Clint> he did say "not from germany"
20:59:29 <Hydroxide> 3
20:59:30 * h01ger thinks this is way to rushed
20:59:34 <h01ger> really
20:59:37 <Hydroxide> h01ger: four hours is rushed?
20:59:40 <Hydroxide> 2
20:59:43 <h01ger> bah
20:59:46 <h01ger> Hydroxide, yes
20:59:50 <h01ger> those 4h were rushed
20:59:51 <h01ger> without a plan
20:59:52 <Hydroxide> h01ger: after many status meetings?
20:59:58 <Hydroxide> 1
20:59:59 <h01ger> exept you makign a silly coutndown now
21:00:08 <Hydroxide> h01ger: and everyone else is telling me "just decide"
21:00:13 <Hydroxide> hendrikL: even several other germans
21:00:30 <Hydroxide> ok
21:00:37 <Hydroxide> #agreed Bosnia DC11
21:00:40 <Hydroxide> #endmeeting