Started logging meeting in #debconf-team, times are UTC.
[20:04:43] * maxyz_ here
[20:04:44] <Tincho> there's only one thing to discuss really :)
[20:05:06] <marga> #TOPIC Venue decision.
[20:05:11] <moray> has everyone here read the document?
[20:05:34] <madduck> except for the indiv +/- points on the alternatives...
[20:05:39] <Sledge> yup
[20:05:46] <des> #link http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf8/AltVenueProposals
[20:05:49] * ana nods
[20:06:06] <marga> So, we have the possibilities listed in that document, and might be able to come up with some other possibilities. We don't have right now enough info about everything, but we would like to know what you think about them.
[20:06:29] <Sledge> marga: what's your gut feeling about the 13 de julio?
[20:06:40] <beuno> a big issue here is moving the event from Mar del Plata to Buenos Aires
[20:06:40] <marga> Sledge: well, not all the local team feels the same.
[20:07:04] <marga> Sledge: I have trust in them, and even if I don't like how they raised the prices, I think that we would be able to have a great conf there.
[20:07:20] <marga> Sledge: however, not all local-team feels the same.
[20:07:21] <Sledge> marga: ok... but others are less convinced of that?
[20:07:23] <des> the feeling go from not-so-confortable to plain unfortable I think
[20:07:24] <Sledge> ok
[20:07:25] <moray> and other people are more negative, or more positive?
[20:07:33] <beuno> very very negative
[20:07:43] <Tincho> Sledge: I have been mostly the contact with the hotel for the past months. My gut feeling is quite bad; but I'm also very pissed off with them
[20:07:45] <moray> what about the people who've dealt with them most (whoever that is)?
[20:07:48] <ana> FWIW, the POV of a outsider reading the localteal mailing list is in favbour of moving to BA
[20:07:50] <beuno> they haven't shown a single sign of goof faith since marga and co. went there
[20:07:52] <marga> moray: nobody is really possitive.
[20:08:02] <Tincho> moray: that's marga and me, mostly
[20:08:17] <Tincho> ana: the ML has been complete madness :)
[20:08:22] <Sledge> beuno / Tincho : ok
[20:08:24] <marga> Both Tincho and I have dealt with 13 de Julio. I don't agree with beuno's statement.
[20:08:28] <ana> Tincho: i know, and not all the info is there
[20:08:35] <ana> but i like the bauen option
[20:08:44] <ana> people not being helpful in the hotel is not nice
[20:08:54] <beuno> ana, buenos aires has something that hasn't been presented, which is that, while it's more expensive, people won't have to go from buenos aires to mar del plata with their own money (and time)
[20:08:57] <marga> Please, it's nothing like Mexico.
[20:09:07] <ana> beuno: yes
[20:09:12] <ana> marga: oh, i'm sure
[20:09:14] <Sledge> marga: how much (if anything) have we given the 13 de julio as a deposit?
[20:09:15] <ana> but still
[20:09:18] <Tincho> the thing is, they have done very strange things. We don't completely understand why they treated us so unproffessionally
[20:09:23] <des> Sledge: nothing yet
[20:09:26] <moray> well, it's normal to have some venue issues, the price / uncertainty is relevant though
[20:09:40] <marga> Sledge: not a cent. And I think that that is part of the reason why they haven't been so helpful lately as they were before.
[20:09:43] <moray> obviously we have more to lose from problems during a conference than the venue does
[20:09:45] <Sledge> marga: ah, ok
[20:09:51] <des> Most of us think the problem is with the event manager of the hotel
[20:09:54] <beuno> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotel_Bauen is an interesting read
[20:09:57] <paravoid> why did you choose mar del plata in the first place?
[20:09:57] <moray> (as they know we won't be coming back)
[20:10:04] <Sledge> marga: out of curiosity, is that our choice or theirs?
[20:10:14] <des> We think the problem is pretty much Him and not the venue per se
[20:10:17] <ana> what i have google about bauen made it looks like a good option
[20:10:25] <marga> paravoid: because there are may hotels, and it's cheaper than Buenos Aires.
[20:10:35] <moray> certainly a lot of people were in favour of BA when the original venue was being made
[20:10:41] <marga> Sledge: it was mainly caused by several delays due to disagreements on both sides.
[20:10:44] <moray> i.e. most of us international people would have much preferred it :)
[20:10:49] <Tincho> paravoid: B.A. is way more expensive
[20:10:52] <ana> marga: net link will be more easier and less problematic in BA, right?
[20:10:56] <Tincho> and doesn't have as much infrastructure
[20:10:58] <ana> AFAIk it is being a little problem in DQ
[20:11:00] <ana> MDQ
[20:11:00] <Tincho> ana: yup
[20:11:02] <marga> ana: yes.
[20:11:08] <ana> and that is _very_ important
[20:11:18] <Ganneff> i hate changing place. people already bought tickets to mar del plata
[20:11:34] <Tincho> ana: but we had that mostly settled when we decided that the hotel was a problem
[20:11:36] <ASCIIGirl> tickets to mar del plata are thru buenos aires
[20:11:42] <des> ana: maybe not as much of a problem but quite more expensive
[20:11:42] <Sledge> Hotel_Bauen sounds *really* interesting
[20:11:45] <Tincho> Ganneff: don't think so. there are no flight to MDQ
[20:11:48] <Tincho> (direct)
[20:11:50] <beuno> Sledge, :)
[20:11:56] <Ganneff> Tincho: not direct
[20:11:59] <ana> Sledge: i do not know how much info there is in english
[20:12:06] <ana> Sledge: but i googled it in spanish and it was nice
[20:12:08] <Tincho> Ganneff: you need to switch airports
[20:12:09] <beuno> buenos aires is ~10% more expensive
[20:12:11] <Ganneff> but people bought tickets already. and that might include changing planes and going there.
[20:12:12] <beuno> and,a gain
[20:12:14] <Ganneff> Tincho: yes. and?
[20:12:19] <ASCIIGirl> Ganneff, the worse would be loosing the little amount of money from bs as --> mar del plata...
[20:12:20] <beuno> no 5 hours bus trip after 14 hour flight
[20:12:26] <marga> ana: be careful, it's not "Bauen Suites"
[20:12:30] <Tincho> Ganneff: that I think that most people buy to EZE not MDQ
[20:12:33] <Sledge> do we have any idea of how many people have already bought tickets to MDQ?
[20:12:36] <Ganneff> im all fine with changing within mar del plata. not sure i would want to go to ba
[20:12:39] <ana> marga: yeah, sure, i have read the ML :)
[20:12:55] <Sledge> for example, Maulkin and I are only booked to EZE so far
[20:12:55] <beuno> Ganneff, even if it means having a sub-optimal venue?
[20:13:00] <moray> Sledge: as ASCIIGirl says, people would have wasted money if they did that, they wouldn't actually have to pay more now though
[20:13:09] <Sledge> yup
[20:13:17] <des> ana: there are some problem with the Bauen hotel, the political situation of the city is not the best for recovered hotels of factories, and that worries us
[20:13:21] <Sledge> I'm just curious how many people would be unhappy
[20:13:22] <Ganneff> beuno: that depends on the amount of suboptimal
[20:13:24] <paravoid> it doesn't look very professional from our side though
[20:13:35] <Tincho> paravoid: no, we know :(
[20:13:40] <beuno> Ganneff, well, the amount depends on which of us you ask :)
[20:14:01] <Ganneff> its just very bad to always say mar del plata and now jump a few hundred kilometers elsewhere
[20:14:12] * Sledge nods Ganneff
[20:14:17] <marga> Yes
[20:14:18] <moray> paravoid: oh, I'm definitely biased against moving -- the current world financial problems aren't something we could have planned for, though
[20:14:21] * des nods Ganneff
[20:14:25] <Tincho> I want to tell all the team that we are really ashamed of this. We have worked A LOT, but we came to the conclusion that we need to explore alternatives
[20:14:32] <ASCIIGirl> Ganneff, I would rather do that than having problems then....
[20:14:42] <Sledge> much as personally it would make my life easier to be in BA, MDQ has to be favourite
[20:15:02] <Sledge> Tincho: no shame, better to know this now than in August
[20:15:03] <beuno> Ganneff, I agree from a PR point of view. But, again, the MDQ hotel has been terrible to deal with, and there is no indication that it will be any better during the conf
[20:15:13] <Tincho> Sledge: yes
[20:15:20] <des> Sledge: almost all the localteam feel the same, but we need to explore other options, just in case
[20:15:25] <maxyz_> Sledge: There are two airports in BA, EZE (international) and AEP, flight from anywhere to MDQ, means, *->EZE bus to AEP (45min or more) then AEP->MDQ.
[20:15:28] <marga> beuno: really, they have done things wrong, but I think you are exaggerating.
[20:15:35] <moray> Sledge: on the wasted-money side, it's definitely the case that far more people will have to pay for travel BA-MDQ later than have done yet
[20:15:49] <Ganneff> jftr - im against the splitted thing, ie sleep there, go there for talks/hacklabs. wherever dc will be. :)
[20:15:50] <Tincho> now. We spent the last two weeks exploring options. But it is a very short timeframe. So we have a bunch of ideas, but we have holes because of the lack of time
[20:15:52] * des nods marga
[20:16:02] <ana> i think we all will fit in bauen
[20:16:07] <moray> if it's going to move (at all) it needs to be announced soon, obviously
[20:16:10] <paravoid> I think many of us are biased in favor of BA because it will spare us the bus
[20:16:15] <maxyz_> In our original proposal, we recommended taking a bus from EZE directly to MDQ.
[20:16:16] <ana> i think we'll be less people than in mexico... :(
[20:16:19] <Sledge> so, looking at other options...
[20:16:28] <marga> ana: but the conf rooms are way too expensive, we can't used them, we'd need to go somewhere else.
[20:16:33] <Sledge> are the Antartida and Astor both in MDQ?
[20:16:34] <beuno> ana, yes, and they have other options in case they run out of space, so that's really not an issue, no matter how much marga insists on stressing it
[20:16:41] <ana> marga: well, the fre place 3 blocks away?
[20:16:43] <moray> from comments people have made, being in BAs would probably increase the number of people coming
[20:16:46] <ana> marga: is it closer than in EDI?
[20:16:58] <moray> it doesn't make sense to move because of money to something more expensive, though
[20:16:58] <Tincho> Sledge: yes, excecpt for bauen and the hostels. the other are in mdq
[20:17:01] <ana> beuno: ok, hotels in the same street?
[20:17:08] <beuno> paravoid, many of us ar biased towards BA as we can spend more time setting up, and many people won't need to sleep at the hotel, as they live here
[20:17:15] <marga> ana: we haven't settled on the place, we have an option at 3 blocks, so yes, it should be closer than EDI.
[20:17:16] <Sledge> Tincho: ok, thanks (that could be clearer in the wiki page)
[20:17:18] <beuno> ana, yeap, and even on the same hotel, top floor
[20:17:24] <Tincho> Sledge: was really rushed
[20:17:31] <ana> marga: then it is very close
[20:17:32] <Sledge> Tincho: np
[20:17:56] <Tincho> the options at mDQ are really promising
[20:18:00] <Sledge> any ideas on places to hold talks in MDQ then?
[20:18:03] <ana> well, IIRC the main reason to go to MDQ was the price against making it more easy to localteam
[20:18:06] * des nods Tincho
[20:18:18] <marga> ana: yes.
[20:18:25] <ana> now price has raised up, we have not idea how much it will be and staff is not being helpful...
[20:18:25] <moray> ana: the price and people said there weren't usable hostels in BA...
[20:18:26] <beuno> ana, right. The issue now is that we have no price en MDQ :)
[20:18:27] <Tincho> Sledge: the astor can have the talks
[20:18:43] <Sledge> Tincho: sure? the wiki page says otherwise
[20:18:49] <marga> moray: indeed, going for the hostels option means at least 4 different hostels.
[20:18:50] <des> beuno: ??????????!
[20:19:00] <ana> paravoid: it is not only the bus trip, what i have read really makes it more attractive BA
[20:19:02] <beuno> des, is that perl?
[20:19:07] <ana> paravoid: but all in spanish :(
[20:19:10] <Tincho> Sledge: gah, it is an error
[20:19:12] <marga> Tincho: it can't have us+hacklabs+talks.
[20:19:18] <Tincho> Sledge: the astor hsa two hotels
[20:19:26] <Sledge> right, ok
[20:19:30] <Tincho> in the same hotel we can have hacklabs
[20:19:37] <Tincho> and we could use the other one (200m) for talks
[20:19:38] <maxyz_> ana: What we pay today stays frozen.
[20:19:42] <Tincho> or the other way around
[20:19:42] <marga> beuno: please don't go spreading FUD.
[20:19:49] <Sledge> how far apart are astor 1, astor 2 and antartida?
[20:19:59] <Tincho> beuno: you aren't being helpful here
[20:20:02] <marga> Astor 1 and Antartida are just around the corner
[20:20:07] * beuno thinks bauen is the best option, if the budget can be accomodated, as it has everything within the hotel, and is very well located
[20:20:14] <Tincho> Sledge: there are plaenty of hotels in that area
[20:20:16] <moray> I do think that more international people would be happy by us moving to BA than would be upset by it -- though it *would* look bad moving
[20:20:18] <marga> Astor 2 is about 200m from them.
[20:20:20] <Tincho> like *too much*
[20:20:23] <beuno> Tincho, there _is_ not fixed price in MDQ, so that isn't fud, it's reality
[20:20:29] <marga> And yes, many other hotels in the same 4 or 5 blocks.
[20:20:32] <maxyz_> ana: The main difference in the price could be for the people that is not included in the arrengement.
[20:20:39] <ASCIIGirl> I would prefer everything in the same hotel...walking along with laptops its not an option for me :(
[20:20:50] <Tincho> beuno: please go and look the budgets before saying that
[20:20:56] <des> beuno: That's FUD, please stop
[20:20:57] <Sledge> from the details of Astor and Antartida, might we do best to offer more expensive rooms in Astor, but cheaper (== sponsored) in antartida?
[20:21:15] <beuno> Tincho, right, then please specify that those prices are if that's payed for in full TODAY
[20:21:21] <maxyz_> Prices might increase a 20%, (for extra rooms, and food)
[20:21:26] <marga> Sledge: yes, that could be done. And have hacklabs in one and talks in the other.
[20:21:30] <des> #link http://charon.damianv.com.ar/planomardelplata_ref.jpg
[20:21:34] <Sledge> marga: yeah, exactly
[20:21:38] <Sledge> des: cool, thanks
[20:21:44] <Tincho> Sledge: the astor rooms are fancy, we think
[20:21:48] <Tincho> it's 4 stars
[20:21:53] <des> Sledge: np :)
[20:22:03] <Sledge> des: just what I was looking for
[20:22:09] <moray> is the exchange rate changing / what is it now?
[20:22:12] <Tincho> Sledge: and the problem is that antartida is other owner
[20:22:16] <Tincho> so we would not have the same deal
[20:22:22] <Tincho> moray: not much, except for euro
[20:22:29] <marga> moray: yes, it's changing, not terribly quickly right now, but it might change more in the next months.
[20:22:29] <beuno> moray, it is changing, although it might be to our favor (dollar being stronger)
[20:22:44] <marga> Dollar has gone from 3,15 to 3,21 in the past (three?) months...
[20:22:59] <Sledge> marga: USD to ARS?
[20:23:01] <Tincho> beuno: not quite. the money is already converted to pesos
[20:23:11] <marga> Sledge: 3,21 ARS per 1 USD
[20:23:16] <Sledge> ok
[20:23:21] <Tincho> beuno: and no. what you said is fud too
[20:23:29] <beuno> Tincho, the money already here, yes, But isn't that less then 20% of the total
[20:23:36] <Sledge> if the USD keeps falling, will EUR be worth more in .ar?
[20:23:41] <marga> Please, let's stay on focus.
[20:23:42] <Sledge> (roughly!)
[20:23:43] <beuno> Tincho, I'd love it to be FUD too :)
[20:23:44] <Tincho> Sledge: yes
[20:23:45] <marga> Sledge: yes.
[20:23:54] <des> beuno: no, please stop talking about things you don't know
[20:23:55] <marga> We have 2 things to decide:
[20:24:03] <beuno> Sledge, euro <> dollar isn't tied here, so it doesn't matter
[20:24:21] <marga> 1) Are options where everything is not in the same place, viable?
[20:24:36] <Ganneff> IMO no.
[20:24:47] <Ganneff> or it should be *very* close :)
[20:24:51] <paravoid> we had that on EDI and it wasn't that bad
[20:24:53] <maxyz_> Ganneff: 1 block away?
[20:24:55] <Sledge> Ganneff: define close?
[20:24:55] <marga> 2) How much more convenient has to be an option in B.A. in order to decide to move the conf here
[20:24:58] <ASCIIGirl> 1) I would say no
[20:25:01] <Tincho> Ganneff: a couple of options are in a 200m circle
[20:25:01] <ana> EDi was very fine
[20:25:12] <Ganneff> <=500 m
[20:25:12] <beuno> paravoid, the thing is, .ar isn't .uk, so walking 4 blocks at night isn't the same
[20:25:15] <Tincho> edi was about 500 m
[20:25:18] <moray> EDI is probably safer than BA...?
[20:25:23] <Tincho> moray: way more
[20:25:27] <des> <=500m should be trivial
[20:25:34] <ASCIIGirl> not to panic..but I would prefer not to have people walking around with laptops...
[20:25:36] <ana> imho, the most important thing is hacklab close to talk room
[20:25:45] <moray> yes
[20:25:51] <ASCIIGirl> moray, edi its much more safer than mdq and ba
[20:26:06] <Tincho> edi > ..... > mdq >> ba
[20:26:17] <ana> ASCIIGirl: Tincho :(
[20:26:20] <ana> sad to read
[20:26:28] <moray> I just know that Debian people don't tend to have much common-sense about security when it comes to the physical world
[20:26:31] <marga> Ok, so, what should be the maximum distance?
[20:26:34] <maxyz_> In MDQ people walking around shouldn't be a problem in BA downtown, it might.
[20:26:53] <marga> I think that 500m in MDQ are fine, while 500m in downtown BA are a bit too much.
[20:26:56] <ASCIIGirl> thats why I belive its not an option to have them seperate
[20:27:01] <maxyz_> (with notebooks I mean)
[20:27:02] <Tincho> mdq is quite empty in august, so there are very few thieves in comparison
[20:27:07] <Sledge> marga: if there are ~200m options in MDQ, I think that can work
[20:27:10] <ASCIIGirl> 500m during the night in mdq...its not fine
[20:27:12] <beuno> I don't agree with maxyz_, just for the record. Having been several times in winter in MDQ
[20:27:12] <marga> Sledge: ok.
[20:27:46] <moray> beuno: sorry, you're asserting what then?
[20:27:53] * des agrees with maxyz_
[20:28:12] <Tincho> beuno: you are making biased assertions just to favour BA. Please stop
[20:28:16] <beuno> moray, walking around in MDQ downtown randomly without being careful _isn't_ ok
[20:28:27] <moray> I think we can say the hostels in BA are out?
[20:28:35] <beuno> Tincho, bleh
[20:28:47] <Tincho> moray: they have this big problem with distances. OTOH, they are very cheap
[20:28:53] <marga> moray: I think so, too.
[20:28:56] * Sledge nods moray
[20:29:01] <ana> honestly, i think the issue about changing the venue whould be made for people in the localteam
[20:29:01] <moray> Tincho: well, distances, and very divided
[20:29:02] <Tincho> hotels that aren't bauen are totally out of budget
[20:29:02] <Ganneff> hostels out is good.
[20:29:05] <ASCIIGirl> I think distances can kill the event :(
[20:29:06] * des nods moray
[20:29:06] <ana> they are the most qualified to do so
[20:29:16] <Tincho> moray: yeah, but that's only a problem for orga, I think
[20:29:23] <moray> ana: indeed, I think it's their decision in the end too
[20:29:31] <Sledge> yeah
[20:29:40] <Sledge> what's the preferred option for the local team?
[20:29:44] <moray> Tincho: well, lots of people didn't like the "division" in Edinburgh
[20:29:55] <Tincho> moray: ah, I wasn't aware
[20:29:59] <marga> Sledge: we haven't decided yet. Still getting budgets.
[20:30:00] <madduck> if distances are a problem, we'll make sure people know and walk in groups, and possibly organise escorts
[20:30:09] * Sledge nods madduck too
[20:30:11] <Tincho> Sledge: we can't have an final opinion now
[20:30:18] <ana> moray: yeah
[20:30:21] <madduck> Sledge: i'd escort...
[20:30:22] <marga> Sledge: also, as you might have realized, different people give different weights to PROs and CONSs
[20:30:24] * des nods Tincho
[20:30:31] <moray> Tincho: probably more people objected before the event than actually during it, but still...
[20:30:35] <Sledge> Tincho: I know that, but what do *you* think?
[20:30:38] <maxyz_> Could even consider having the sponsored in hostels (500mts away from hacklab and talk rooms), and the non sposored in a hotel like Bauen?
[20:31:08] <Tincho> Sledge: I really like the astor option. And there are *many* options to explore with a couple of weeks more of time
[20:31:12] <Tincho> in that area
[20:31:29] <Tincho> Sledge: I have a very bad gut feeling with the 13/7 hotel, but that's our best practical option
[20:31:33] <moray> Tincho: it would really be better not to wait another couple of weeks though :/
[20:31:38] <Tincho> moray: I know :(
[20:31:45] <marga> So, how about 2)? How much more convenient has to be an option in B.A. in order to decide to move the conf here?
[20:32:00] <Ganneff> *LOTS*
[20:32:01] <Sledge> marga: for me, a *lot* more convenient
[20:32:17] <marga> heh, that's difficult to measure.
[20:32:18] * des nods Ganneff
[20:32:18] <Ganneff> it is very bad pr. way worse than lucas blog post for debian, to give an example
[20:32:19] <moray> I think it's hard to quantify, as it's mostly a loss of trust if we move rather than anything financial
[20:32:20] <ana> marga: for same money, i think BS is way better
[20:32:28] * Tincho nods Ganneff
[20:32:32] <Sledge> we will piss off a lot of people by moving, both sponsors and attendees already with travel plans
[20:32:44] <marga> I think that it should be more convenient in money, but for the same quality.
[20:32:45] <Ganneff> we would need to save some 20k or more to have a reason (in money) for it.
[20:33:01] <Ganneff> if not more.
[20:33:02] <Tincho> but I really don't think that this will disrupt many plans
[20:33:06] <des> Ganneff: US$20k?
[20:33:12] <Tincho> I think it's purely PR
[20:33:18] <Tincho> which is important enough
[20:33:19] <moray> Tincho: yes
[20:33:37] <Ganneff> des: si
[20:33:38] <beuno> moray, that issue has been discussed many times, but I still think it's worse to stick with the venue to dodge that bullet, and then have the event be a pain in the ass for everyone involved (specially -team)
[20:33:45] <marga> Yes, but we should be getting the same quality for the same price, and not less quality for the same price...
[20:34:20] <des> ok, we won't save money by moving to BA, that's for sure
[20:34:35] <ASCIIGirl> we would save on other things
[20:34:38] <Tincho> Ganneff: there's no way to save money in BA if we don't use hostels
[20:34:40] <ASCIIGirl> like having a helpful place
[20:34:54] <ASCIIGirl> doing it somewhere where the staff wants us to stay and have a great event
[20:34:55] <des> BA is way more expensive in most thing, exept conectivity
[20:35:01] <Tincho> I have talked to many people in BA and there are NO cheap and big hotels
[20:35:04] <Ganneff> Tincho: hostels are out
[20:35:05] <Tincho> saving bauen
[20:35:11] <ASCIIGirl> also BA its much more interesting...
[20:35:17] <Tincho> true
[20:35:21] <moray> Tincho: sure, there must be some reason why you didn't all agree for BA in the first place :)
[20:35:28] <Tincho> moray: yup :)
[20:35:35] <Tincho> I'd really like to have it in BA!
[20:35:35] <nueces> agree whit ASCIIGirl
[20:35:44] <ana> moray: i think it was because the money
[20:35:49] <moray> ana: yes
[20:35:51] <ana> it was supposed to be very cheap in MDQ
[20:35:56] <moray> yeah
[20:36:03] <ASCIIGirl> moray, was cause at that point was impossible to do it in BA , prices where other...
[20:36:06] <des> ana: yes, mostly
[20:36:11] <Tincho> ana: it indeed is. there are hotels for u$s 13 in MDQ
[20:36:14] <ASCIIGirl> now we negotiate and we got better prices..
[20:36:14] <Tincho> that's hostel price in BA
[20:36:23] <Ganneff> no matter why we went there. now we yelled out loud "its mar del plata". taking that back is BAD
[20:36:25] <moray> off-season in a beach place definitely *should* be cheaper
[20:36:29] * Sledge nods Ganneff
[20:36:40] * ana sighs
[20:36:43] * des nods Ganneff
[20:36:43] <ana> it seems clear then...
[20:36:53] <ana> find more helpful hotel in MDQ
[20:36:57] <ana> i like more BA
[20:37:03] <ASCIIGirl> Ganneff, I do understand that, but I think BA its better on many ways... :(
[20:37:05] <ana> but it seems like the winner option in this meeting
[20:37:07] <moray> although 13 de Julio have increased their prices, can I check that no one is saying BA would be cheaper, still?
[20:37:10] <Ganneff> people might love BA, but thats just not good to take, for reasons mentioned.
[20:37:21] <Ganneff> unless there is absolutely no way to stay in mar del plata
[20:37:24] <marga> moray: not for the same quality, no.
[20:37:42] <Tincho> moray: the biggest problem, IMO, is the lack of credibility they have shown
[20:37:44] <marga> moray: the only way to make it cheaper is to have the conf separate from the hotel.
[20:37:45] <moray> marga: so (while I don't like it), the arguments for MDZ are probably still valid?
[20:37:48] <moray> Q
[20:37:52] <des> moray: only if we went to hostels
[20:38:19] <marga> moray: yes.
[20:38:28] <des> marga: it's at best the same price, not cheaper in BA
[20:38:57] <ana> question: why the 13 Julio hotel was chosen?
[20:39:05] <Tincho> we started looking for options after I have a very bad discussion with this guy, who has clearly shown that he's an asshole. He's only an employee, but that gives me the bad feeling
[20:39:09] <marga> des: yes, same price and less quality
[20:39:22] <Tincho> ana: there are like 50 confs each year there
[20:39:24] <marga> ana: we had very good references from it. Over 50 conferences per year take place there.
[20:39:24] <maxyz_> ana: It's a hotel were lots of conferences are held every year.
[20:39:31] <moray> Tincho: the problems are just them being unclear on the prices, or more things?
[20:39:37] <ASCIIGirl> ana, cause was supposed to be good....and was supposed to have experience with events...but they dont seem to know how to deal with that
[20:39:53] <moray> ASCIIGirl: well, DebConf *is* unusual in its requirements
[20:39:55] <Tincho> moray: more like delaying eternally, changing things on the run without warning
[20:39:59] <des> moray: is mostly the attitude of the event manager
[20:40:01] <Tincho> complete lack of proffesionalism
[20:40:26] <ASCIIGirl> moray, giving prices for rooms its not so unusual....
[20:40:29] <moray> Tincho: and they show the lack of professionalism how?
[20:40:29] <Tincho> moray: yeah, we think that we aren't a good deal to them
[20:40:52] <des> delays, and wrong attitudes, he even achieved making Tincho very angry
[20:40:55] <Tincho> moray: promising something for next monday and having it next month, for example
[20:41:04] <Tincho> moray: lying
[20:41:14] <Tincho> (cheating, taking the name of our lord in vain :))
[20:41:23] * Sledge tickles Tincho
[20:41:24] <ASCIIGirl> do we wont to have debconf on a place with all that?? :(
[20:41:40] <marga> They have been helpful in many other ways, as well.
[20:41:42] <moray> well, Teviot weren't very 'professional', it was stuff we could work around though
[20:41:48] * Sledge nods moray
[20:41:55] <Sledge> we had lots of issues in EDI too
[20:41:57] <marga> They have accomodated our requests, even if with delay.
[20:41:58] <Tincho> moray: yeah, I know. we wanted to avoid that problems
[20:42:04] <Sledge> and we managed to pull things off
[20:42:21] <des> yes, we have achieved a contract that is quite what we want
[20:42:40] <marga> Yes, it took us longer than what we wanted, but it's ok now.
[20:42:41] <des> but we doubt because of the general attitude of this guy
[20:42:42] <ASCIIGirl> marga, is their work...to help you
[20:42:43] <moray> food prices at Teviot were also very confused (despite us having an agreement early on)
[20:42:56] <moray> though obviously it's better to avoid these things, yes :)
[20:42:59] <marga> So, we need a few agreements...
[20:43:01] <Tincho> we spent 4 months trying to get a final agreement
[20:43:16] <Tincho> that's lots of time
[20:43:21] <marga> Should we agree on that the conf places shouldn't be separated more than 200m ?
[20:43:24] <moray> I guess also food isn't the *main* thing to worry about
[20:43:34] <Sledge> marga: sounds good to me
[20:43:39] <moray> (at worst we don't need to sponsor most people's food at all)
[20:44:00] <ASCIIGirl> marga, if its 0m better...this its not uk, and we dont want people to get stolen...
[20:44:07] <moray> having a good *venue* for talks/hacking is the most important issue
[20:44:23] <marga> #agreed Conference places (hacklab/talks/rooms/food) shouldn't be separated more than 200m away. 0m is always better.
[20:44:27] <Tincho> in regard of venue, 13/7 is clearly the best
[20:44:28] <moray> (which includes making sure people get to/from meals/sleeping fine, of course)
[20:44:58] * des nods Tincho
[20:45:04] <marga> Should we agree that we shouldn't move the conf to BA unless we get a better price for the same quality?
[20:45:24] <Ganneff> yes. *way* better price
[20:45:25] <moray> having the main conference venue to ourselves is also important -- not necessarily the hotel part, though that's also preferable
[20:45:25] <ana> define better quality?
[20:45:29] <ana> hotel? net link?
[20:45:34] <Tincho> If we can agree on some guidelines, (and we want mdq) I think we can get quite decent options
[20:45:34] <beuno> Ganneff, that doesn't make sense
[20:45:45] <Ganneff> beuno: it does.
[20:45:59] <beuno> you are throwing away the fact all the money people save by NOT going to MDQ
[20:46:17] <Tincho> beuno: 30 usd
[20:46:18] <ana> beuno: well, i'm told going from BA to MDQ is chea
[20:46:19] <ana> p
[20:46:21] <marga> ana: well, the whole thing really. We can get good internet in MDQ, it's just more expensive.
[20:46:23] <Ganneff> and you want to kill the money of people who already bought tickets down to mar del plata
[20:46:24] <ASCIIGirl> and spending 5hours in a bus after travelling 12 thru plane
[20:46:26] <moray> marga: yes -- while in principle maybe BA would have been 'nicer', I don't think we can justify moving city unless it's cheaper
[20:46:40] <Ganneff> and also want to have debconf with a *bad* pr
[20:46:42] <ana> beuno: it is not money issue, it is 5h-bus issue
[20:46:50] <Sledge> beuno / ASCIIGirl please, let's try and be constructive here
[20:46:53] <moray> Ganneff: if it was just about the money, that's a lot less people than will later buy tickets from BA to MDQ, who could avoid it by us moving
[20:47:00] <moray> Ganneff: I agree it's *not* just about the money, though
[20:47:12] <Sledge> at this point, we should not be considering moving to BA unless something catastrophic happens
[20:47:19] <ASCIIGirl> Sledge, Im being constructive...by pointing the bad things Ive found...
[20:48:30] <marga> Any opinions on my suggested agreement?
[20:48:34] <ana> i do not think we are getting much more here....
[20:48:44] <des> marga: fwiw I agree
[20:48:49] <ana> local people should look at options (both options) for a couple of days
[20:48:50] <Sledge> marga: agreed
[20:48:51] <ana> then decide
[20:49:17] <marga> #agreed We shouldn't move the conf to BA unless we get a better price for the same quality.
[20:49:19] <nueces> ana, 10 das ?
[20:49:20] <beuno> I personally think that betting everything on a hotel that has had very bad predisposition is a good recipe for disaster. But, again, if people can live with that because of PR and a small sum of money, then I guess I don't have anything else to add :)
[20:49:22] <moray> marga: but the internet presumably wouldn't be enough cheaper in BA to satisfy Ganneff's money criterion?
[20:49:29] <marga> ana: yes, that's the next agreement.
[20:49:31] <ana> nueces: 2 dias
[20:49:52] <marga> So, the last agreement is how much longer should we work on this until we get to a decision...
[20:49:54] <Tincho> moray: it is really expensive in MDQ, but in the overall budget is a small amount
[20:49:56] <moray> marga: (obviously the prices of any options need to be compared taking everything into account)
[20:50:03] <moray> Tincho: that's what I assumed, yes
[20:50:04] <ana> well, you did look another options in both MDQ and BA in hurry
[20:50:07] <beuno> moray, internet might be better (100mb vs 10mb), but I don't think the price will make any diff
[20:50:18] <ana> maybe with an extra couple of days you will find a super-nice hotel in BA/MDQ
[20:50:24] <ana> who knows :)
[20:50:29] * Tincho is about to lose the semester at the UNI because of this... it was really in a hurry
[20:50:36] <ASCIIGirl> ana, thanks for being optimistic :*
[20:50:48] <marga> No deadline suggested :-\
[20:51:02] <Ganneff> take 2 weeks
[20:51:09] <Ganneff> report on list
[20:51:10] <ana> can we afford 2 weeks?
[20:51:19] <marga> Yes, can we afford that much?
[20:51:21] <moray> Ganneff: 2 weeks is a long time at this stage, surely?
[20:51:27] <ana> 1?
[20:51:30] <Ganneff> fine. take 1 week
[20:51:36] <moray> I'd rather we decided *this week* if possible (but I imagine not)
[20:51:38] <des> Tincho: you are mainly on top of hotels in mdq which seems to be the best option, how much do you think?
[20:51:42] <nueces> i think 10 days
[20:51:55] <nueces> no less
[20:52:17] <Tincho> des et al: if we agree on MDQ, I plan on moving there soon to talk and see all the options
[20:52:38] <moray> Tincho: how soon could you go there?
[20:52:39] <Tincho> and maybe find more
[20:52:40] <des> Tincho: I can provide you accomodation, probably
[20:52:41] <marga> Tincho: do you think that 1 week is enough to make a good decision?
[20:52:49] <Tincho> moray: 2 days notice is enough
[20:52:51] <des> Tincho: hell I might even move with you :)
[20:52:54] <maxyz_> Tincho: That would be great.
[20:53:08] <Tincho> marga: for existing options, yes. not for new ones
[20:53:29] <marga> Tincho: ok, I think we should keep working with the existing ones, we have many already.
[20:53:30] <moray> well, the best thing *would* seem to be if people can go there and visit the options, arrange meetings in advance, and make a decision based on that
[20:53:31] <Tincho> des: :)
[20:53:45] <moray> (as soon as possible)
[20:53:53] <Tincho> marga: this was really randomly picked... maybe there is the perfect hotel around the corner :)
[20:54:08] <Tincho> moray: yes, but we couldn't do that in such a hurry :)
[20:54:09] <marga> #agreed We will take one more week of exploring options and try to make the best decision by then.
[20:54:41] <marga> I think that's all we needed to agree on, then.
[20:54:47] <ana> yup
[20:54:51] <Sledge> cool
[20:54:53] <ana> good luck...
[20:55:01] <marga> #action Tincho (and maybe des) will be exploring options in MDQ in the next days.
[20:55:01] <moray> Tincho: well, I think in a couple of days of looking you'll know what the options are like, ideally you would ask for pricing info 'now', before you go, then meet with people then
[20:55:32] <moray> even if you will concentrate on a few, it's worth contacting as many places as you can
[20:55:35] <Tincho> moray: yes, but there mught be options I don't know of, from here. being there makes it easier
[20:55:51] <Tincho> so, having different places for venue/rooms is an option, right?
[20:56:04] <marga> Tincho: yes, less than 200m away.
[20:56:13] <marga> So, shall we move on to a different topic?
[20:56:22] <moray> tincho: in Edinburgh, while we ended up going with the first hostels we suggested, it was definitely worth it that we got information from at least 20...
[20:56:26] <marga> Or just close the meeting here and call for a new one soon?
[20:56:35] <moray> Tincho: (and venue information from several options too)
[20:56:43] <moray> marga: are there more topics you think we should discuss today?
[20:56:45] <Tincho> I'm worried for the restaurant
[20:56:48] <des> marga: 1 week from now?
[20:56:52] <Tincho> that might be around 400m in a couple of options
[20:57:05] <marga> Tincho: ok, please, lets keep doing this ourselves.
[20:57:10] <Tincho> ok, sorry
[20:57:18] <marga> We have the reconfirmation thing...
[20:57:35] <marga> But I think it's better to do reconfirmation when we have a definete settlement on the hotel.
[20:57:50] <marga> #TOPIC Next meeting
[20:57:52] <moray> I agree reconfirmation before the venue is actually certain seems premature
[20:57:59] <Sledge> agreed
[20:58:03] <ana> +1
[20:58:10] <moray> reconfirmation will probably push more people to book flights / outside hotels /etc., for one thing
[20:58:41] <marga> Ok to have next meeting April 30th 20:00 UTC ?
[20:58:45] <Sledge> yup
[20:58:55] <ana> next week same time?
[20:58:55] <Tincho> uhm
[20:59:03] <Tincho> we have the week end in the middle
[20:59:04] <Sledge> earlier is even better for me, but 20:00 is fine
[20:59:08] <moray> for the next meeting, a week today sounds reasonable -- though probably there should be some meeting (maybe just locals) before that too
[20:59:10] <Tincho> I won't be able to do much during week end
[20:59:37] <moray> so people cand find problems with the suggestions then do a second round of fact-checking
[20:59:57] <Tincho> and I need to reaccomodate a couple of things before leaving for mdq. so I don't think I can start before monday with interviews
[21:00:19] <marga> moray: yes, we have a local meeting every Monday, and are in a sort of forever-meeting since all this started :)
[21:00:23] <moray> Tincho: do you / does someone else have time to contact more places and ask for pricing *this* week?
[21:00:33] <Tincho> moray: surely, not me
[21:00:36] <moray> so they know you're coming next one
[21:00:44] <moray> but maybe someone else could do that?
[21:00:51] <Tincho> yes
[21:00:52] <moray> it will waste time if you just turn up in MDQ and start then
[21:01:02] <moray> anyway, I'm sure you can discuss this locally
[21:01:22] <marga> Tincho: you want to postpone the next meeting, or are you just stating your schedule?
[21:01:25] <des> Tincho: monday 5?
[21:01:45] <Tincho> I'm afraid it is too early 7 days from now because of the week end, I'd prefer monday 5
[21:01:54] <Tincho> if other people is ok with that
[21:02:13] <marga> Ok, so Monday May 5th, 20:00 UTC ?
[21:02:41] <Sledge> I guess so
[21:03:14] <marga> Ok... Hopefully we will have made the decision earlier, anyway.
[21:03:24] <marga> #agreed Next meeting: Monday May 5th, 20:00 UTC
[21:03:33] <marga> #TOPIC AOB ?
[21:03:44] <Tincho> the 250 USD price tag
[21:03:49] <marga> Ah, right, sorry
[21:04:01] <moray> marga: well, if you find reasonable optoins you should of course work on them immediately anyway (except paying money)
[21:04:10] <Tincho> we're almost certaind that there is no way to do this for that money
[21:04:27] <moray> how many people have chosen that option so far?
[21:04:42] <marga> What we thought is to consider people that have already registered for this category to have a "discount" and raise the price to 300 USD to new registrants.
[21:05:27] <marga> We have 25 Prof right now.
[21:05:46] <Tincho> that's really a small number
[21:05:58] <marga> But some people have registered as Individuals after the deadline and should be actually Prof.
[21:06:05] <marga> I think the number should be more like 35.
[21:06:30] <moray> well, changing the price for *new* people is definitely fine
[21:06:51] <Tincho> that's 1250 USD total
[21:07:04] <Tincho> 1750, sorry
[21:07:05] <moray> for existing people you could also ask them if they want to pay more if the price increases
[21:07:13] <moray> as some of them may be happy to
[21:07:21] <marga> Tincho: what's the point?
[21:07:29] <marga> moray: uhm, that looks a bit messy.
[21:07:35] <moray> marga: they could have chosen zero anyway, if they wanted
[21:07:39] <Tincho> marga: the total amount we should discount, worst case
[21:07:44] <marga> Tincho: ah, ok.
[21:07:53] <moray> marga: so they're presumably trying to help DebConf?
[21:07:59] <marga> moray: ok, we'll try to make it look less messy :)
[21:08:38] <marga> moray: yes, I guess most of them are. Yet, I don't like the PR of "We raised our prices, please pay more". We need to find a better way of saying it.
[21:09:11] <marga> #agreed The price for "Professional" attendee shall be 300 USD from now on. The others are to be considered "discounted" and might be invited to pay the extra 50 USD.
[21:09:42] <moray> marga: just some message including things like this, "... as you registered already your price will stay the same. ... Of course, we would greatly appreciate it if you are able to pay the increased price ..."
[21:09:42] <Ganneff> uh god. thats - unfun to change.
[21:09:48] <Ganneff> in pentabarf i mean.
[21:09:56] <marga> Ganneff: I know, we'll have to work it out.
[21:10:06] <moray> Ganneff: I think it would need a new item?
[21:10:12] <Ganneff> possibly.
[21:10:13] <marga> Yes, new item.
[21:10:18] <moray> just make the old one 250 (early registration)
[21:10:22] <moray> and the new one 300
[21:10:27] <marga> But, should we close the meeting now?
[21:10:31] <moray> and use the existing code to stop people choosing 250
[21:10:48] <moray> marga: I think people who needed to have probably left already, but I guess so :)
[21:10:54] <marga> I agree with everything Moray said.
[21:11:02] <marga> I'll just go ahead and close the meeting :)
[21:11:06] <marga> #endmeeting
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